A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.
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This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.
Transitioning to a point of passing in my understanding (mtf or ftm) comes with pros and cons.
I often think about this article as well when it comes to trans men's negative experiences once accepted as men: https://www.newsweek.com/trans-man-broken-men-1817169
Is it me or is this a uniquely American experience?
I loved in quite a few countries and I've never seen this kind of absurd behavior. Granted, in a man, but I've never seen a man cut off a woman like that just because she's a woman, and I've never seen or heard comments even remotely about someone being "exotic". I've heard questions like "ohh, and where are you from?" in genuine curiosity, which is fine, I've never noticed overt racism like that.
Sorry, but this sounds exactly like what male privilege is. Assuming that it doesn't happen near you because you haven't noticed it.
Ask your female friends what sorts of sexism they genuinely face regularly and I think you'll learn a lot.
I live in America and haven't noticed this as a man, I assume the misogynists have enough self awareness to keep it somewhat out of sight. The last time I noticed something inappropriate, the person quietly left the company a few weeks later. I have no idea if it was related to what I saw, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I 100% believe that it happens, it's just not visible to me.
Granted, i'm a man
you haven't noticed racism and sexism because you are a male who's the "proper color" for the region in which you reside.
male privilege and white privilege are often misunderstood to mean like "special privileges" and poopoo'd because plenty of white men struggle to get by in this world, but that's not what it means.
it means the privilege of 'being taken seriously', the privilege of 'benefit is the doubt', privilege of 'basic respect and decency'.
it also has the benefit/drawback of 'privilege to be blind of misogyny/racism'. I believe you wholeheartedly when you say you've never seen it, but that's the "privilege".
The responsibility you hold in return for this "privilege" is you must believe the words of peeps who don't share this "privilege" when they tell you their experiences. after all, why would you see these things? How else would you experience them when you aren't directly a part of them?
'course you wouldn't! That's fine! Normal! why would you see them? those things aren't directed at you. that's really all the "privilege" is!
back to responsibility, be careful not to dismiss the words of people who have direct experiences of racism and sexism just because they don't match your own. remember, these things aren't directed at you!
have a good one
Lol not from what I've heard about Italy
I lived in Mexico, arguably worse macho-wise, and even there men didn't behave that shittily
And yet, the Supreme Court in the UK claims that trans people shouldn't be afforded the same gender-based discrimination protections as their cis counterparts.
Discrimination is a social artifact, based on performed gender, not biological sex (whatever that means), as evidenced here.
One observation I made is that when women get to comprise a significant part of workforce in science, those things seem to be flattened out.
Working in the place and field (Russia, food technology) where women are about 50% of the workforce, I've never witnessed anything talked about here. Women are taken just as seriously on the position, they are promoted on par with men, they are in charge of many high-profile projects, and actively taking male and female students under scientific supervision. Any sort of workplace harassment will not just contribute to your potential termination, but will earn you very bad reputation - you'll be seen as a dangerous weirdo no one wants to deal with.
One other observation I made is that international scientists often come from the position of entitlement, which is also weird to me. Male scientists tend to flaunt their position any time they can, and many of the female scientists tend to sort of mimic this behavior, but it feels different, like if they try to claw the attention they were consistently denied.
For me, it is weird and unnatural. Where I live and work, some baseline respect towards your more experienced superiors, male or female, is to be expected, is taught since school, and doesn't require such performances. Since most school teachers are female, the role of woman as a potential superior to be respected is clearly defined and doesn't cause questions. Students are not afraid to contact their superiors, but do it respectfully and with full understanding they take valuable time of a high-profile scientist. Why do people have to constantly fight for attention and respect in many other cultures is beyond me.
As a man, it is insane to me that this is real.
I have a difficult time imagining malicious intent towards women by all these people. But given how common these stories are, there is something true about it. I just don't understand why.
Is it really an unconscious cultural thing? Or am I naive about how my fellow men (I guess maybe women too) feel towards women?
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
I am not defending them. I am expressing my struggle with the reality of this shit.
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
Most people don't do any of this "intentionally" in the sense that they are aware of the harm they cause. It doesn't even enter the realm of moral consideration.
To many, there is a genuine belief of superiority that is entirely subconscious. The easiest example is classic mysogyny in a relationship - the woman is "emotional" and therefore the man should be the one to handle "business". That's not just 1950s oppression. Some variation of that thought process is shockingly prevalent across generations.
That man doesn't really think he's harming his woman. He thinks he's helping, by being the man of the house. That same logic applies outside of romance. "I am more rational than she is, therefore I should talk now and she shouldn't."
That's not a thought. That's just a foundational belief that spawns all the other thoughts.
Ever been in an argument with another adult, and a child joined in with some naive half-informed emotional take on society?
An adult usually placates the child - explains, briefly, why they're wrong - and returns to arguing with the other adult.
That's how a lot of men see women by default. As inferior, naive, ill-informed, emotional creatures. Not consciously. Not intentionally. Many mysogynists genuinely seem to have the same intentions as the adult to the child - to placate and educate.
But its fucked up, and it's important to acknowledge that it simmers under he surface. The reason all of this is so complicated and messy is that it is so hard to see mysogyny for what it is.
You genuinely can't know if a single interaction with a single male was an example of mysogyny, because sometimes humans just condescend to each other. Sometimes humans are just shitty to each other.
But women experience so many of these experiences in aggregate that they can't give the benefit of the doubt to every man they meet, especially when the man himself might not understand his own implicit biases.
I understand now how people can believe sexism is not an issue. Do you not have any people who are women close to you who have faced this professionally?
Honestly, no. I am working in programming. There are no women. We both know why and the answer is sexism.
But even on the way into the job, I have only twice experience someone telling a woman to not do IT that was when I was a student. 1. A classmate, and everyone gave him a lot of shit for it. Seriously, I don't think he had a friend in the class afterwards. 2. A father telling his daughter. And there I jumped in and challenged him on it.
It is difficult to spot sexism in a different department.
Edit: I misread the question. in my friend circle, I can't recall any woman complain about sexism at their work, but a former female friend in china. The women in my life had issue with their work but I don't recall specifically sexism. Tbf, a lot of them work in jobs that are "women jobs" like caretaker.
2.nd edit: I just recalled 1 case where someone complained about sexism to "me", friend of a friend and I was present. But honestly in that case, it was really bs. Girl admitted that she didn't know what she was doing and admitted that she didn't want to learn and then complain why everyone else got real work in the internship... So not the ideal case to talk about the very real sexism in society.
If you don't mind what do you mean that you understand now how people can believe sexism isn't an issue?
I want to stress that it is an issue, I just have a difficult time believing some of the shit because it seems so comical to me. What kind of person is that way?
I want to say that "unconscious cultural" doesn't exist, but I don't think I'm right on it. You can easily build consciousness on those topics and thus easily spot the cases with risk for any wrongdoing, and with how common and well-known they are, it just feels more like "willingly ignorant".
Assuming that it is cultural, as it seems like your comment kinda assumes that. Like it seems you are saying, it was cultural but by now it is kinda intentional.
I would argue "willingly ignorant" is bad but also not making it less "unconscious cultural".
If they were willingly ignorant but also no cultural sexist, they wouldn't be an issue.
So well you have a point, but I would say that the unconscious cultural sexism could lead to willfully ignorant and you would kinda expect it.
I am not saying, you are fully wrong about the willingly ignorant part, I just don't think it would remove the cultural part.
Edit: ups edited the wrong comment. Sorry
Personal experience from when I was newly an adult, and chatting with a female university classmate and somehow got on the topic of games and I started explaining what Steam was, because I just subconsciously assumed, her being a woman, didn't know.
She politely pointed out I had mansplained to her.
I am very thankful to her for the experience as it's stuck with me and saved me from making a fool of myself on more than one occasion since.
I'm sure there are possibly small things like this, that you may have been been "guilty" of in the past.
These men, are engaging in similar behaviour cranked up to 1000.
However, it's even more malicious with them, because it's not like the last 30 years or so haven't had constant and increasing messaging (in the anglosphere, at least) about feminism and ways in which women have been treated unfairly.
So, it's not like they haven't had the opportunity to reflect, and change.
In summary, yeah, it is kind of baffling, but I will say society, while largely better than 30 years ago, still does have structural as well as conscious and unconcious bias towards women.
So I'm not surprised people like this exist.
I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?
Like I always saw my mom as a extremely competent person, as a child she was flawless. Nowadays, I see her flaws but I am flawed, so if my father and any person I ever met. I am impressed by my sister and how I can be like the person that she is in many ways.
I am talking about my direct family because these women had a lot of influence on me. So I wonder, what was their experience like to think so poorly of women? Not blaming the women in their social circle for being "bad", I just wonder wtf happened. Where does that belief come from? I don't think they all had great experiences with their male role models but horrible ones with their female role models. So what is it?
Selection bias, the people who don't discriminate aren't causing harm so you don't notice them but since they don't speak up they aren't helping either, so the jerks are still setting the tone. The solution is to not just do the right thing but actively call people out the jerks.
I agree with you there. As someone in programming, I don't quite have the opportunity to fight these things when they happen because... There are no women. (obviously linked to this) but I can't call out behavior when it happens when I am not around. But I am happy to report that I have been vocal about my support of trans people and fought against transphobia, even at work. Obviously I am not happy it is needed.
So I am trying to see and support victims of discrimination.
You're simply not paying attention, because you don't have to. Not to be harsh. I went from male to female and how I'm treated is night and day. You've never tried to see how the other side lives, and when you heard stories that went against your experiences you dismissed them like your mind is trying to do right now.
Why does it happen? Nurture. History. Patriarchy. I could blame a lot of things. It's mostly that men never get treated the way they treat women.
I think you're naive but in fairness, it is shocking and hard to believe.
Yuuup. Woman in engineering here. I once had a supervisor whose behaviour I thought of as normal, but two guys I worked with separately reported him to HR for bullying after seeing how he treated me.
It's funny, I had many years with almost no career progression, now my boss is a woman and I'm having to get used to the idea that bonuses and promotions are things that actually happen when I work hard.
I also am glad you got the support. I'm constantly reminded of a friend in college who was going through an electrical engineering undergrad with me. She got all the material so easily and literally dragged me through the classes. I wouldn't have passed some key topics without her help. Fast forward a few years and I'm getting my PhD and I decide to see what she is up to: she ended up quitting her PhD program because of the insane abuse and misogyny she experienced in the department and instead changed to a masters in music. This was a woman who could easily have made field changing discoveries but was shut down because of close minded individuals. It still makes me rage and is the reason I work so much harder now to ensure my female colleagues and employees have an equal voice at the table.
My wife was marked down on her PhD because she "wasn't nice enough" to her supervisor. All the assessors gave her top marks, but her supervisor vetoed them.
Glad to hear you at least had some decent colleagues!
Not in stem but the same thing happened to me. I used to be able to speak to a room and be heard. Now I need to raise my voice, sound a little whiney or bitchy or nobody hears me. Only my closest friend still asks me for advice or to share my knowledge. Used to happen all the time.
At least I pass. I got that going for me.
