“We will continue to actively engage in the hard work of direct diplomacy on the ground until we reach a Final Solution.”
this post was submitted on 21 Feb 2024
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Your blue no matter who strategy has been I place since 2008. As a result, the Democratic party is further right than it's ever been before, and creeping fascism has exploded into running fascism.
This is a direct consequence of your strategy. Blue no matter who results in unaccountable elected officials, because you've positioned yourself to have no other option. They have no requirements of responsiveness to your political positions because they know that you think "this election is too important'.
It's basic game theory and you've cornered yourself into supporting your opponents strategy. By voting blue no matter who you've set up a paradigm where the best case scenario is a slow walk into right wing facism.
If haven't been able to tell, the strategy is obviously not working. Look at how unresponsive Biden has been to voter sentiment in Gaza. He's in complete opposition to his base. As such he faces losing Michigan. The direct cause of this is the confidence that he will not lose voters because you are unwilling to make the difficult choice of withholding your consent. As such he knows he doesn't need to respond to your policy positions, and in doing so, is setting up the conditions for another Trump presidency.
Congratulations, you played yourself.
Okay since you've mentioned game theory let's do some.
For: T = trump wins B = Biden wins
M = Biden is just as bad as Trump N = Trump is much worse than Biden
Then the outcome table looks something like this where positive numbers mean a good outcome
T 0 -1
B 0 +1
Since if they're both bad it doesn't matter who wins, like you're insinuating. But if Trump is worse than Biden then it's obviously better to vote Biden because if Biden wins you get a 0 or a 1, but if Trump wins you get a 0 or a -1.
And also to anyone with eyes, ears or a brain, it's obvious Donald "I'm literally going to start a fascist dictatorship if I win" Trump is worse than Joe "Please don't commit genocide or I'll write you a strongly worded letter" Biden.
Also... we've seen this happen before. Hillary loses to Trump, we live through four years of a fascist administration (and all the shit that comes with it), then in 2020... we get Biden.
That user is, simultaneously, using criticisms of Biden to justify recreating the conditions that brought him into office.
And that user also used the Palestinians to justify letting the DNC lose to Trump, even though Trump is even more bigoted and pro-Israel. It's saying the best "strategy" to voice discontent over the genocide is to... accelerate it.
I'm not willing to go through four years of fascism, then if we get to vote again in 2028—which we wouldn't be able to take for granted—likely get some other milquetoast conservative Democrat. I'd rather spend the next four years trying to fight and push Democrats to the left than to fight GOP fascists.
Yeah it's very much cutting off your nose to spite your face.
"You know what will show those bastards at thr DNC? If we let trump win and let him ruin our lives1 Imagine the look on Bidens face when I get beaten by magahats, lol.
Moderate voters elected Joe Biden and in the same breath where they say Democracy is at stake they sneer at the idea of compromising with leftists or progressives to save it.
Moderates are the problem.
Moderates being the problem doesn't mean not voting is the solution.
I'm voting 3rd party or writing in.
Here's a solution you haven't explored: Go scream at moderates for once.
The Kremlin thanks you for your service.
Would moderate voters prefer I helped Biden win? Seems like a good opportunity for them to negotiate yes?
In these precarious moments with Democracy and Fascism on the line, is it really smart to shove a stick in the flimsy bicycle we already have that can possibly avert this?
I say no, it is not the time to negotiate. It is time to fall in line and deal with the big fish first.
You would have us negotiate only after we've given away the biggest bargaining chip we have? I can tell you exactly how that's gonna go. Moderates will give us the finger and call it a day.
There will be more elections down the road with less precarious leaders and less crazy consequences should they lose. Bargaining chips occur during primaries; Democrats have none for good reason this cycle — and even the progressives are in consensus.
Unless you want to run for office — then by all means.
Oh? Is that why we got Biden? Because of all those bargaining chips we have?
Anyway you didn't even try to deny that moderates will just give us the finger and walk away. You know it's true.
You act as though progressives are the silent majority. We are deeply the minority in this country. We're the smartest voters who, yes, Democratic strategists know will fall in line because we are aware of the greater poison. We don't really have a bargaining chip in the first place.
What's more is have you analyzed what would happen if Biden pivots heavily to us but loses the more conservative moderates who are the majority or more importantly, swing voters in swing states...?
Until we slowly overtake the Democratic party and the previous generation dies off, change is going to be slow and steady. Surely you'd agree it's easier to destroy than to maintain or make progress. Such is the nature of entropy. So when progress isn't on the table, I'll take stability over someone smashing the puzzle.
Then we cannot possibly be primarily responsible when a Democrat candidate loses in the general election can we?
Are you acknowledging moderates would rather lose to fascists than compromise with leftists and progressives?
Nope. What I'm saying is that you clearly have a minimal grasp on polling data, and that the consequences of ceding everything to your demands means ceding the entire election to Republicans because the offset from conservative swing voters is greater than the risk of progressives sitting out. One would be a terrible campaign advisor if you suggested this. Hence why Biden is toeing the line between publicly disavowing Israeli action, withholding Apache helicopters, labeling the bombings as indiscriminate, and clearly pivoting away from Israel but still trying to court the conservative and Jewish voters in America.
So until you can give a substantive, data-driven response as to how Biden can maintain or pick up voters without risking the entire election to the true fascist, then I don't buy your argument.
Ok then don't cede everything. Cede something. Make an offer.
So we're gonna try the same tactics as before.
Right? It's crazy when moderates bring up 2016 as if it were a lesson for progressives and leftists. The lack of self awareness is ridiculous.
Do you think the same people who refused to show up for Hillary in the 2016 general voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries?
The elephant in the room here is that moderates are the largest voting bloc in the Democrat party. That means they hold the lions share of the responsibility for outcomes. If they steamroll the primaries to vote for a candidate that isn't popular with wings they need to win general elections they are responsible for that decision.
Well, no. I'm not sure what point you think I was making.
My point is that the DNC isn't going to be pushed left by a loss. The leadership is old, stubborn, and stupid. They'll tell leftists to shut the fuck up during the primaries because they don't matter, then blame them after a loss because suddenly they did matter enough to make the difference. When it turns out that most leftists held their noses and voted Blue anyway, they'll just ignore it. Then, if we get to vote again, they'll take exactly the wrong lesson, and just push harder to the right.
The point in bringing up 2016 is because they did push a centrist candidate, she did lose to a fascist clown, and then, four years later, they pushed Joe Biden. Why on Earth would anyone expect them to do anything different if it happens again?
I see the problem you're making, it's not always obvious so it's kind of hard to deal with.
The issue is expecting logic to have any affect on some people.
(It's always worth the effort I'm just poking fun) :P
Where’s the table with the third party candidates?
Hahahahahaha!
How old are ya bud? Is this your first election?
I see you have boomer in your name, must be all that lead and asbestos. Cheers for the laughs, moron
Chronic stress puts your health at risk
Bernie would have been better, but Biden is better than Trump. It's that simple.
Then where are your lectures for the moderates? They are the majority voting bloc. They chose a garbage candidate and continue to sneer at the very idea of compromising with leftists and progressives.
You need to make the connection between this exact thinking and the previous 20 years of history. This is the argument Democrats have been making every single election cycle. The result is that we have a rightwing Democratic party, and a further right Republican party.
Its a failed strategy, the result of which seems to be a turn to global fascism.
So you prefer to not participate rather than take the best of the options in front of you. Understood.
Moderates chose to participate in the 2020 primaries and choose one of the worst options.
Moderates chose not to compromise with leftists and progressives on policy matters.
That judgement cuts both ways my dude. Where are your lectures for moderates?
This is a false dichotomy.
I'm right here. Give me a call when Nancy Pelosi is calling out Biden for his weak position on Israel and asking for a unilateral ceasefire (you know, as in, the vote Biden blocked this morning).
I'm right here. Come get my vote. You want me to vote they way you want me to?
Go ahead and start writing letters and phone banking Pelosi's office. Hit me up when you get them to adopt the policy and I've vote for your candidate.
If this is so fucking important, what are you doing to convince Democrats that they need to go after voters who don't approve of their policy?
You've declared yourself to be right multiple times in a row, which indicates that you are not fully convinced on this concept. Also you should probably learn to be a better persuader. You won't win people over by being on the attack all the time.
I mean "right here' as in, my vote is available for the taking. If the Democrats want to change policy positions, they'll get my vote.
My broader point is that giving away your vote without policy concessions is precisely why we're on a cripwalk to fascism.
Until we move away from first past the post, your refusal to participate is spoiling the vote in favor of the party that opposes the party you claim to be wanting to improve. Voter turnout in the US is very low compared to in other democracies. You need to understand that playing chicken with the center-right party will only help the far right party. Of course we want them to be better, but they can't get better if they have no power. Progressive policies are popular as fuck, but because you and people like you are making "good" the enemy of "perfect", we are winding up with dog shit morons like Lauren Boebert as a rep, Ted Cruz as a Senator, and Donald Trump as a president.
It's like you brought a ball to recess and wanted to play soccer. 35% of the kids want to play kickball, which isn't soccer but at least you still get to show off your sweet kicking skills. 35% want to shit on the ball and throw it at your face. 30% will whine about having to play whatever game gets picked. You're part of that 30% right now. Why the fuck would you insist on not going along with kickball when the alternative is a shit-covered pummeling? Don't you think that maybe once you've proven to the rest of the 30% that kickball is actually pretty good, maybe you can make soccer happen at recess next time?
Buddy what are you not getting here? Moderates will never allow this to happen.
I think you didn't read anything past that part. My point was that that isn't happening, therefore these are the rules for this, so not participating is spoiling the vote. The US has comically low voter turnout. If people left of center keep voting third party or withholding their vote, they help the right win today which will shift the Overton window further right tomorrow.
Except that this isn't football at lunch. This is a conversation about a party which supports genocide, versus another party that would also support a genocide. I'm not going to be able to influence the Republicans by withholding my vote. I'm not going to be able to influence the Democrats by offering my vote implicitly.
I might be able to influence the Democrats by witholding my vote.
The Democrat you are insisting I vote for IS PARTY TO GENOCIDE. Not hypothetically, not maybe in the future. The guy we have right now, the genocide happening right now.
Real. Right now. This guy.
The data we actually have says that voting Democrat isn't sufficient to stop a genocide. Maybe voting republican isn't either. We don't have data on that.
Its not my job to carry water for a genocidal party and their sycophants; you think its yours.
And guess what? All that water carrying, years of it, its not working. The Democrats are further right than they've ever been.
When a strategy doesn't work, you change your approach.
In doing so I find myself party with Rashida Talib, Ro Khanna, Abraham Aiyash (second ranking Democrat in Michigan House).
All of them are asking people to write in "No Confidence".
If you think you can keep handing your vote to Democrats implicitly while demanding nothing for it, and they'll just magically find their way to your policy position, you are delusional. Do know why Republicans cater to their voters insane desires? Because if they don't, Republican voters drop them like a sack of shit. Withholding your vote is one of the only and most effective ways to move elected officials to your policy positions.
Guess we should all just not vote and hand our democracy to its killers. Allllll because you don’t understand how foreign policy works and how little control Biden actually has over Israel.
But go ahead, hand the election to the magadonians I’m sure they won’t be party to genocide in Israel AND Ukraine!!!
It’s so neat how you get to choose which genocide matters btw.
It’s literally Biden or Trump and you are here throwing out 3rd party votes and the like. Have you seen any of the primaries????
So your goddamn duty as a citizen and vote for the least shit person like the rest of us. Get of your goddamn high horse and stop holding your vote ransom.
You say your vote is up for grabs yet you won’t vote for anyone that isn’t perfect.
Get a fucking grip, grow the fuck up. The world isn’t easy binary choices, sorry kid. At least you chose an apt username, you fucking nonce
Biden cutting off arms supply to Israel wouldn't make him perfect by any stretch of the imagination. You're being ridiculous.
Oh, it's working as intended.
Yeah its a pretty salty cynical take, but you aren't wrong.
Fuck them and fuck their apologists. Maybe the accelerationsists have the right of it.
do you realize how much positivity and wins the dems have raked in since 2018?
Don’t bother answering because we all know the answer is no.
This is your first election, you don’t get how any of this works, we get it already. Time to step off your soap box and learn some actual history
Given a choice there are plenty of better options. As things stand though the other side is red till they're dead and will continue to push more dangerous positions regardless of what the left does. The middle space 'independents' are the only deciding factor being courted.
Yeah because
2008 USA = 2024 USA! Totally were festering on the end of our democracy there with ex presidents interrupting the peaceful transfer of power for the first time ev-
Wait what? 2008 was essentially another lifetime ago and democracy was not hanging by a thread as it is now….
But shit, we already did blue no matter who so I guess we’re all fascists instead by your words. Yep!
Get a fucking grip and open your goddamn eyes
To no surprise you have provided no response to any of the great comments you’ve received from this brain dead take of yours. I wonder why
Since 2008? So your "blue no matter who" Democrats pushing us towards fascism are Obama and Biden?
If people were actually voting like your take implies, we'd have had Hillary instead of Trump.
You’re talking to a child that barely remembers 2008 and speaks only of what they’ve heard years after lol
I guess