this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2023

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SPEECH: Sen. Simons backs 2SLGBTQIA+ rights, denounces anti-trans hate (invidious.io.lol)

submitted 11 months ago by Grant_M@lemmy.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca

39 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Excellent speech by Canada's most excellent Senator https://mstdn.ca/@Paulatics

all 41 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] spacecowboy@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago

Paula is a fantastic human being.

[–] Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Is the goal to use every letter of the alphabet?

[–] archonet@lemmy.world 22 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

I'm gay and I support this comment.

We do not need to represent every single minority in the acronym, that's what the rainbow flag is for, that's literally the entire point of the flag because a rainbow includes every color. "LGBT" rolls off the tongue nicely and there are zero repercussions in tacking a + on the end of it. If I have to memorize a new, extended acronym every fucking few months just because Tumblr can't stand not being on their social high horse I am gonna have a fucking aneurysm.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

I'm bisexual and I get why people keep adding letters, inconvenient as it may be to some.

It's easy to say "this is enough" when you already feel represented. You don't need to use a longer acronym than you are comfortable with, but likewise you should not expect others to shorten their acronym for your convenience.

Some gender and sexual minorities are neither lesbian, gay, bisexual nor trans, yet they want to feel seen: they have been hidden, ignored or ostracized for too long. They don't want an umbrella like + or 'queer' to hide under. They are their own thing, so they want to have their own label to recognize themselves and to be recognized.

Once gender and sexual minorities have been understood and accepted more broadly, people within them will organically become more accepting of umbrella terms. But today is not the day. Not yet. Today let's continue to welcome more people until we are all here.

[–] m0darn@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The answer is to use 'SOGIM': Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Minorities

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's great that you have found a term you like. Other people may prefer a different one, and that's also okay.

[–] archonet@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Hello, Tumblr. By the time "we are all here", the acronym will include the alphabet, numerals, and quite possibly other glyphs (if someone throws an emoji on there so help me god). Human sexuality is varied and diverse if you haven't noticed. I am not learning an acronym long enough to singlehandedly win a game of Scrabble just so everyone can feel special. Not happening, sport, and most people would agree -- which is why this will never catch on and Tumblrinas need to stop trying to force it to.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Hello, fellow human.

I am not learning an acronym long enough to singlehandedly win a game of Scrabble

Nobody is forcing you to use any term you don't like. You can use whatever term you want and other people can also choose whatever they prefer. If you find people choosing their own labels troublesome, imagine how you would feel if people started forcing you to call yourself something different.

Also, being friendly on the internet costs nothing. Yes, even to people with other viewpoints.

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca -4 points 11 months ago

We do not need to, but if the cost of doing so is a few grumpy fellas getting aneurysms out there, we're in for a treat. Let's add more!

[+] Grant_M@lemmy.ca -18 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Nice bigot comment.

[–] Lemonparty@lemm.ee 14 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Nice knee jerk response to valid criticism. It is objectively difficult to support a cause when a) you can't remember the current "correct" name, or b) you get non-inclusive shamed for not using the (current) right name, or c) you get called a bigot for pointing out either of these things by knee jerking shit heads like yourself.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

It is objectively difficult to support a cause when a) you can’t remember the current “correct” name

Feel free to use whatever term you like the most.

b) you get non-inclusive shamed for not using the (current) right name

Has that actually happened to you, or is it something you fear? I understand how that would be upsetting. Being demonized when you have acted in good faith hurts.

c) you get called a bigot for pointing out either of these things

Gender and sexual minorities have been demonized for centuries and are now finally trying to both understand themselves and to be understood. This process of (self) discovery is slow and in the meantime we will have this alphabet soup until things settle down to simple convenient umbrella terms.

For now, let's try to be friendly and welcoming to everyone.

[–] Lemonparty@lemm.ee -2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

A) LGBT is/was fine, and yes I live in an area

B) Yes, at a pride parade most recently of all things. Had to be defended by my two gay room mates.

C) Don't deflect. Homey (forget if it was you) was being an asshole; and the reality is that nobody can keep up with your brand if you're constantly changing the name. Things rebrand seldomly and deliberately for a reason.

I've been to gay weddings, two of my best friends are gay, members of my family are gay, my wife's best friend works in gender affirming care. All of the people I just mentioned acknowledge that this constantly expanding need-to-include-everybody in a name somehow has a negative impact on both perception and support. So if you can't accept that opinion, even if you disagree, it's short sighted of you. And challenging anyone that points it out as a bigot is closed minded.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

A) LGBT is/was fine

It is. Some people prefer using a different term, and that is also fine.

B) Yes, at a pride parade most recently of all things. Had to be defended by my two gay room mates.

Please do elaborate. Did the problem arise because you used your preferred term and somebody corrected you, or the other way around? Because at least in this post it's been you who has been demanding other people to use your preferred term, not the other way around.

Don’t deflect. Homey (forget if it was you)

It wasn't me, and you could have checked very easily.

So if you can’t accept that opinion, even if you disagree, it’s short sighted of you

So, people can either agree with your opinion or be shortsighted? Is there no room for anything else?

Whether your various queer acquaintances agree with you or not, other queer people like me can disagree, because we are not the Borg. Speaking of consensus, if we have one thing in common it is probably being tired of straight people telling us how to be queer.

[–] Lemonparty@lemm.ee 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You should really re-read what you're writing before writing it. The point has now gone over your head three times.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Or maybe some people have trouble empathizing with marginalized minorities who want representation because they've never been in their shoes.

[–] Lemonparty@lemm.ee 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Most people also have trouble empathizing with people who lash out and get hostile anytime they receive feedback that can be even slightly perceived as criticism.

If you're wondering who would ever do such a thing, I encourage you to visit the nearest restroom and look into the large piece of glass hanging above the sink.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Most people also have trouble empathizing with people who lash out and get hostile anytime they receive feedback that can be even slightly perceived as criticism.

This is how you started, and it didn't get any better as the conversation continued:

Nice knee jerk response to valid criticism. It is objectively difficult to support a cause when [...] knee jerking shit heads like yourself

Does that sound like something that "can be even slightly perceived as criticism"? Perhaps there's some room for improvement. You could try not insulting people if you don't like people being offended by what you say.

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

valid criticism

Is the goal to use every letter of the alphabet?

lol super valid criticism, not a knee jerk response at all

[–] Lemonparty@lemm.ee 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The acronym used in this post is ELEVEN characters long. When you have an acronym that long, you've lost sight of the purpose and acronym serves.

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Care to enlighten the community on the purpose of that acronym?

Could it not be the case that the purpose you see in that acronym is a different one from the purpose the activists do?

[–] Lemonparty@lemm.ee 0 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Do...do you not understand the basic function of an acronym? Which is mainly to serve as a means to shorten things so that they're easier to remember?

What other purpose would an acronym serve? Regardless of what it is?

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I do, of course. It certainly is mainly to serve as a means to shorten things. Still, not every acronym has the exact same purposes behind its design.

Not every acronym is designed to be easy to remember. Obvious example: UNBGBBIIVCHIDCTIICBG, almost 1MM members on reddit; many of whom probably can't recall the entire acronym and yet it's a lively subreddit.

What other purpose would an acronym serve?

One of these extra purposes imbued to 2SLGBTQIA+ is to bring visibility. Visibility is achieved by unwrapping a few extra letters from inside the + in there. And the obvious demonstration that it works is this post: some people just learned what 2S means, thanks to it being right there in the acronym.

[–] Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (3 children)

The equal rights are a bit more important than the name don't you think? Trying to find the most inclusive name possible that's apparently ever changing and impossible to remember doesn't seem super useful.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 11 points 11 months ago

Feel free to continue to use LGBT+, it's concise and makes it clear you're trying to be inclusive.

[–] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Trying to find the most inclusive name possible that’s apparently ever changing and impossible to remember doesn’t seem super useful

It's useful to the people who are trying to understand themselves and to be seen.

You can use whatever term you like, and let other people use theirs.

[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

The fact you're focusing on the name and not the message is what makes me extremely suspicious about your motives.

[–] gibmiser@lemmy.world -2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

2SLGBTBBQ? never seen this one before, what is the 2s?

[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I was going to ask the same question but, you know, in a respectful way instead of an idiot's way.

Thanks for those who replied to this. It would have felt awkward asking after seeing someone asking the same question in bad faith.

[–] FoundTheVegan@kbin.social 9 points 11 months ago

In that spirit, for anyone wondering and curious. The full acronym, explanation and details can be found here.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 7 points 11 months ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Two spirit, it’s a catch all term for First Nations cultural third genders

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I thought it was a version same-sex attraction or something, or is it sorta like the Anima and Animus?

[–] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It’s a lot of things. There are a lot of cultures thats concepts of gender boundaries and what constitutes someone outside of male and female doesn’t quite line up. We often consider the eastern hemisphere more unified on these concepts than it is, and we’re a lot more likely to recognize how wildly diverse the native cultures of that continent cluster are than we are of the American continents.

So what is two spirit? Could be what we’d consider gay, bi, trans, nonbinary, intersex, or other, but it comes in an explicit choice to frame it in the context of their culture. What you can gather from someone calling themselves two spirit is that they’re queer and First Nations and they see those as tied together.

[–] cheese_greater@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Fair enough

[–] flicker@kbin.social -2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I don't like the idea of expanding the acronym to intentionally place someone "first."

Everyone has an equal place at the table and this feels like a great way to start the kind of stupid infighting that I've found exhausting since I first heard a man claim that he didn't have an interest in a community that spent any time and energy fighting for anything but his needs. At a Pride parade in the late nineties ffs.

Additionally, it feels hollow in the same way that corporate pride feels. "You haven't been represented appropriately in this community up until now, but look! You're first!"

[–] Grant_M@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

More allies are needed, not less. It's great to know there is one in the Senate. Haven't you been paying attention to what bigot Moe and his far right government are doing in Saskatchewan?

[–] flicker@kbin.social 0 points 11 months ago

Adding is absolutely not the issue here. I think I was pretty clear on that. There is room for everyone in our world.

It's the intentional effort to put one group before all others, especially when that group has been vastly under-supported, historically.

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 3 points 11 months ago

like a great way to start the kind of stupid infighting

How much infighting regarding this have you been seeing? From where I stand, it has been pretty smooth sailing. The LGBTQIA+ community reaction I've seen varies between "meh, whatever" to "yeah that's kinda cool".