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Also, in b4 fascists start pretending like the Stalinist bootlicker Thalmann hadn't spent the past half-decade backstabbing and burning bridges with the SPD, which had previously been cooperative with the KPD after the establishment of the Weimar Republic.
You’re calling anti genocide protesters fascist now?
Only if their anti-genocide protest consists of helping fascists into power. All other anti-genocide protesters are based in my book.
You know that the people saying that the democratic party has to earn their vote are for a large portion muslims who can not vote for a party that will continue funding a genocide right? I find it appalling that instead of calling the people who are currently funding the genocide fascist, you are actually calling those people that are protesting against the genocide fascist.
Oh, cool, so doing that is going to reduce US support for the ongoing genocide, right?
... right...?
Cool. I find it appalling that choosing to usher in fascists who will do everything in their power to assist the genocide is considered a morally acceptable choice by some people.
Protestation and striking is the only way to achieve goals that are against the interests of the ruling class. You are trying to shame the only people actually doing anything worthwhile. Electorialism is meaningless compared to protestation.
Oh, cool, so we're in agreement, then, that the people saying stuff like "The Democrats have to EARN my vote against fascism!" are actually disingenuous accelerationists doing the old conservative routine of "Meet me in the middle" with no intention of ever actually cooperating or improving anyone's life.
I find it wild that you take that conclusion from what I said. The largest portion of Palestine protesters care about one thing, which is the quickest end to the ongoing genocide possible. In the US that means getting the government to stop funding said genocide. The means through which to do that are protesting and striking. Is there anything in this that screams accelerationist to you? I’m just telling you that most anti genocide protesters will not vote for the democratic party. However, those protesters are doing much more for Palestine than you are. So calling them fascist is indeed appalling.
Palestinians have fought this battle for decades. They are experienced with tactics to support their cause. They are not asking for you to vote, they are asking for you to organise your workplace to make sure that ties with Israel are being cut, and they are asking you to get on the streets to demand your government to stop supporting genocide. These are tactics that have historically been effective on this issue and other similar issues.
Would you like to re-read the first line of the meme, or are you just spouting off without regard to what the topic actually is?
Are you reading my actual words or are you just spewing nonsense with intent? Recognising that electorialism is not as effective as protestation does not mean support for accelerationism. It just means that the people protesting on the streets are doing more good than a dem voter and therefore it is completely backwards to call them fascists.
If all they manage to is change the current administration's policy by protesting on the streets without ensuring that the current fascist threat doesn't worm its way back into power, they've done a great deal less good than those of us involved in electoral politics working to actually block the fascist who jerks off to genocide and will have immense power to hurry it along.
I have nothing but respect for pro-Palestine protesters who understand the power they wield as citizens and voters. I don't have any respect for pro-Palestine protesters who think that allowing fascism to win is in any way kosher.
If you actually spend that much time and energy in trying to get the democrats to win the election (I’m not counting online arguments), then I’d say your energy is better spent on protesting the system that is forcing people to choose between two fascist candidates. Because the people currently holding their dem votes because of the genocide are not changing their minds. It is part of being human to not vote for genocide, and forcing people to get rid of that humanity will mean a bleak future for the US in which nothing is too far or too much, as long as there is a scarier alternative.
I would say that if you see better chances in people changing their minds on voting for genocide than forcing the dems to adjust their policies then you are already in the scenario that is your nightmare, and that you should do everything to make sure that there comes an end to the vicious electoral system that forces the US into more right extremism every few years. Harris is supporting Trump by continuing the lies about the dangers of immigration and the need for such a rigid border control that it strips the humanity from everyone affected and forces children to be kept from their parents. How far will the dems move right next election if they win again? And how far right after that? They have already proven that they would rather fund genocide than getting a significant part of their voterbase back, which possibly means allowing Trump to win. They have shown time and time again that they do not actually fear a Trump win, or they would have adopted more popular positions (which are often leftist!).
This election is two choices. You either get athlete's foot or terminal cancer. If you don't choose, you get terminal cancer. If you protest because athlete's foot is still bad, you get terminal cancer. Make your choice accordingly.
Yeah great way to ignore the fact that the way you vote impacts the political climate on the long term and if you vote for athletes foot today, tomorrow you will be forced to vote for terminal cancer because the alternative genocide. Except the ‘good option’ is already genocide today. Do you even know what you’re saying? Do you care so little about other people that instead of resisting genocide and fascism that you shame others into voting for it?
Nice slippery slope fallacy you got there. Do you care so little about women and lgbtqia+ people that you'd willingly sacrifice their rights? Do you care so little for kids that you'd allow the department of education to be dismantled and replaced with privatized school? Do you care so little for the shred of democracy left in America that you'd willingly let us become a christofascist theocracy? Republicans and project 2025 are a threat to the very foundation of this country, and you won't vote to stop that? They'll also let Israel continue their bullshit and spread it to other countries like Iran. You're cool with that? Just so you can feel morally superior while allowing all of this other stuff to happen?
If you're not voting Democrat right now, you're an accelerationist.
I actually care a lot about those topics and am actively putting in work into my local lgbtq and Palestine protest communities, improving the lives of lgtbq people (like me) and making sure that the Palestinian cause is not forgotten. Through this work I talk with other leftists who care as much about these same topics as me. This puts me in a position where I know what motivates these people and gives me the generational knowledge of historically effective methods of fights for human rights.
I do not shame people into voting for or against anyone. If I did, and shamed everyone who wouldn’t vote for a liberal party like the US democrats, my community would not exist because I would alienate a lot of people who actually cares about these issues.
You are not helping anyone by calling genuine leftists fascists. You are actually closing a lot of bridges by picking fights with anyone who has a different method of fighting and advocating for human rights issues. I am 95% sure that you have not actually researched how to actually use US electorialism to your advantage, and are just repeating the same talking point that we have all heard a hundred times.
You are trying really hard to ignore the facts that lay before you:
Cool, so you would rather moralize about what will happen regardless of who wins this election than try to prevent America from becoming a theocracy. Cool cool. Enjoy the indiscriminate slaughter of all those groups you say you support. I hope you live comfortably through all the death. Have a good one.
I don’t think you’ve read what I wrote and if you did you did so with a large portion of prejudices. I’m also not the person ‘moralising’ here lol, I’m here in this thread arguing because I find it disturbing that the op frames anti genocide protesters as ‘fascists’. I’d argue that calling people fascist for having a different opinion on the workings of the US electoral systems and the power of protestation is actually more moralistic. I’m giving my point of view because people here (like you) seem to think that they can speak for minority groups that they don’t actually know that well.
It feels like you don't understand the logic somehow.
They said "if you don't vote for athlete's foot, you'll get terminal cancer"
You said "if you do vote for athlete's foot, you'll later have to vote for terminal cancer"
Let's say that your logic is correct.
What you are advocating for is... getting terminal cancer now... so you don't have to vote to get it later...
Pretty fucking stupid take.
I’m saying that to argue that the election is not as important as people here seem to imply, because the big scary thing that will happen with Trump will happen anyways but it will be a democrat and a few years later. You (and other commenters) seem to think that electorialism is the only way to prevent ‘facism’, but I argue that you are already under a fascist government that is funding a genocide and forcing you to keep voting for them ‘or else’. I’ve repeated this same thing a lot in these threads but I’ll do it again: historically the only way to really change the course and to protect the human rights that are at stake/lacking currently is through strikes and civil unrest.
Lmao so you're straight up admitting to being an accelerationist. Glad we could get there together. You want things to get worse faster so that hopefully other people will rise up.
If you don’t know the difference between protesting and accelerationism then idk what to tell you. Trump winning the election wouldn’t be good for anyone.
Why aren't the protesters calling for Hamas to release the hostages if they really want an end to the war? You have a far better chance of influencing Hamas than influencing anyone else at this point with your extreme rhetoric.
Methinks the goal isn't actually to end the violence it's to continue it indefinitely because many so-called pro-Palestinians are profiting from the suffering of Palestinians. A sickening turn for social media where human suffering has been monetized.
Because that was never the point, maybe? Where did you even get the idea the war would end if Hamas releases the hostages? Have you been living with us this past year? Were you keeping up with the ridiculous number of ceasefire deals Israel sabotaged?
So… people asking the person who is supposed to represent them to meet them in the middle are facists? The ones asking the DNC to just, actually represent those it wants votes from?
Not the ones… actively supporting and furthering a genocide?
Ok. Yeah. Sure man. Because it’s clearly the thousands of people who should change and support the killing of their own, not the two who are supposed to represent them.
My favorite part was late last year when so many Very Concerned Leftists were crying "IF THE DEMS CAME OUT IN FAVOR OF A CEASEFIRE, THEN I COULD SUPPORT THEM AGAINST THE LITERAL FASCISTS, OH WOE IS ME, I CANNOT DO SO UNTIL THEY AT LEAST DO THAT BARE MINIMUM OF EXPRESSING SUPPORT FOR A CEASEFIRE!"
And then when Biden began publicly supporting a ceasefire, they immediately changed their tack so they could continue supporting fascism in the US. Such is how it always goes with such creatures.
I mean, going above congress to still send arms to Israel while allowing them to continually sink negotiations for a ceasefire is not doing much to actually support it other than in name. They want actual action, not political theatre dems are known for. Like at the DNC Kamala starting by saying she will always support Israel. Then saying “oh and uh Palestine shouldn’t be completely murdered” to give the bare minimum. But hey, at least she did the bare minimum? Enough to allow some to still hold their nose and vote, though some will still hold out for better than that.
Even still, Green and PSL are what, 0.3% of the vote? Not even a third of a percent. You act like they are more to blame than the 47% republucan vote? So busy trying to turn progressives into an enemy, cuz you know, that’s what it’s gotta be right? Politics always has to be your team wins and everyone else is evil, cuz how else could you win as the lesser evil. lol. Fucking god. Let people push for the DNC to be more progressive, a third of a percent is a lot better than the 1.18% who vote libertarian. But having the DNC make people WANT to vote for them and get some of those ~40% who don’t vote would be good. A lot more good than 0.3% who will vote for someone more progressive.
Do you wear a weight lifting belt while moving those goalposts? You should, because it would reduce the chance of back injury.
Saying something and actually doing something are two different things. No goalpost moved. People want actions to support the ceasefire, not words. Not pretend negotiations that we let Israel poison pill and sink continuously. We have leverage, we just refuse to use it. That is people’s problem with what is going on. Biden words have been completely hollow. If he followed through people would be stoked. It even looked like maybe he was serious almost but that was proved to be wrong, which is why people are rightfully upset.
There’s still hope maybe it happens eventually, but yeah idk man it’s wild you’re happy to watch millions get fucking genocided, entire cities fucking buried, because other guy would let it happen slightly faster.
You can tell they're white because they think demanding to see genocide's manager is more effective than voting against even more genocide happening.
I think it's far more telling that you think this is something race-based. Let me tell you as part of a group that certifiably was actively and passively genocided by the US government. My grandmother even went to the notorious Indian schools. You know the ones where you often see stories of mass graves being found out back of today.
Now maybe it's a personal failing in myself to not see the nobility of your position. Willingly sacrificing lives of people like my family and even myself. With no real chance of receiving anything in return. But someone's going to have to adequately explain that before I'll see it that way.
I'm going to stick to empowering voices like to talib, omar, and Sanders. Not trying to attack and reduce their power like you do. All as some sort of pyrrhic virtue signaling ritual.
Lol
Protesting and striking are valuable ways of organizing and fighting for change outside of the broken electoral system, but that isn't incompatible with using the power afforded to us through the electoral system to avoid the additional damage of a Trump presidency.
Or would you prefer to continue protesting and striking while the president has openly laughed about illegally firing striking workers and backed the use of even more police violence against protestors? Have we really forgotten 2020 so quickly?
The dems don’t shy away from making strikes or protests illegal (look at the way students are getting beat up by the police today). Protesting has always been a risk and it will be a bigger risk during a trump presidency. However the people outnumber the police massively and killing the whole population is economically just not feasible for the ruling class. What I’m saying is that the equation is not as simple as just saying that you should vote for the ‘lesser evil’, because the lesser evil will grow more evil if they don’t face any repercussions. I’m also saying that the people who are actively partaking in protests are doing a lot more for a better world than someone who just votes once every few years. And calling the current anti genocide protesters fascists is a huge insult to any civil rights movements that have successfully taken place in the past.
Who are you going to vote for that will stop supporting genocide? Do you think any President will force divestment from Israel? Or end the massive influx of Chinese goods through Walmart and Amazon?
When there is no option to vote against genocide you turn to the streets. What have you done to stop the genocide? Shame other people for not voting for the party that will continue funding a genocide?
You've got a little under two months to overthrow the government. If your master plan isn't completed by then, the only moral choice is to vote strategically.
Only a small portion of the US needs to go on strike for it to be monetarily catastrophic for the ruling class to continue their strong support for the genocide. So yes, I think that a general strike is way more likely to stop the genocide than convincing people to vote for a party that will continue use their taxes to fund genocide.
Okay, so, like I said, you have a little under two months to complete that. Otherwise? Accept that political power comes with political responsibility.
Okay. Do you agree that calling people who are actually trying to do this fascist is twisted, given the fact that they are actively trying to change fascist decisions by the current US government through historically proven to be effective means?
Please try reading what I say before responding to it.
Yes and I have told you that most of those protesters are the same people who would say that the democrats have not earned their vote. Which means that you are calling them fascists in this post.
The course of action you're referring to is missing a full half of the very short and very readable comment you replied to.
If you aren't going to bother reading what I say, I don't really know why I should continue this conversation with you.
Clearly, anyone against war is not a Nazi \s.
Do you think that pro Palestine protesters are nazi’s?
Do you ask questions that aren't leading?
If the answer to the question is no then your comment is completely irrelevant.
News flash for ya, bud… you’re not part of some elite and secret minority group. Nearly everyone is anti genocide.
I’m expecting people here to be anti genocide and showing the contradiction in calling actual protesters fascist.
But clearly not everyone is anti genocide since there are still quite a lot of people who believe that Israel has the right to steal Palestinian land and kill Palestinian civilians indiscriminately (Harris & Trump do, most politicians in most European countries do as well)