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Furious Democrats are pushing “Squad” Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-NY) to primary Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY) after he agreed to vote with Republicans to avoid a government shutdown, according to reports.

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[–] chakan2@lemmy.world 113 points 20 hours ago (6 children)

Fuck that...AOC and the rest of the progressives need to make their own party. The Ds are done.

[–] xyzzy@lemm.ee 10 points 3 hours ago

The only thing you need to remember is that political parties, by law, cannot restrict candidates from running under that party banner. Superdelegates are how the Democratic Party leadership attempts to skirt this and put its thumb on the scale, but after the Clinton-Sanders debacle, their power was diminished.

An ideological takeover of the party is possible. It just requires progressive candidates to get elected.

[–] MolecularCactus1324@lemmy.world 5 points 3 hours ago

Not going to happen. You need to take over the Democratic Party with progressives, same way the fascists took over the Republican party

[–] GoatTnder@lemmy.world 59 points 18 hours ago (4 children)

As long as the US uses a first-past-the-post system, third parties will not be viable. The only REAL way to go forward is to take over the Democratic party and push it left. We'll see how it goes...

[–] grue@lemmy.world 18 points 10 hours ago

The US has always had two parties, but it hasn't always had the same two parties. Creating a new party that's successful is entirely possible, if doing so completely destroys one of the existing parties in the process.

For example, the Whig Party emerged after the Federalist Party collapsed, and the Republican Party emerged after the Whig Party collapsed.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_the_United_States

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 3 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

As long as the US uses a first-past-the-post system, third parties will not be viable.

Democrats don't have to field candidates if they're so damned scared about splitting the vote. It's not like they're particularly interested in winning anyway.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 5 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah, but they will anyway, because they'd rather split the vote than let progressives win. Dunno why you think that's the case at every other point along the way but that they'll just bow to higher goals when someone is much more explicitly trying to eat their lunch.

At least winning a primary means trying to split the vote will go against the normies feelings of fairness and "the team".

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

At least winning a primary means trying to split the vote will go against the normies feelings of fairness and “the team”.

For that, you have to win a primary. And we cannot trust what democrats hilariously call primaries, when they have them at all.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Why? AOC wins primaries, Omar wins primaries, Bernie wins primaries (for his senate seat). Unless you think they only cheat for the presidency, this "primaries are rigged" view seems like roughly the same level of conspiracy as the MAGAs.

What's the conspiracy that's so undefeatable it's easier to build a new party from scratch that needs to overcome vote splitting in every election?

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 3 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Why? AOC wins primaries, Omar wins primaries, Bernie wins primaries (for his senate seat).

Bernie isn't a democrat.

Unless you think they only cheat for the presidency, this “primaries are rigged” view seems like roughly the same level of conspiracy as the MAGAs.

Was what they did in order to make sure Cuellar kept his seat rigging? Was failing to protect Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman rigging?

What’s the conspiracy that’s so undefeatable it’s easier to build a new party from scratch that needs to overcome vote splitting in every election?

Right. Any level of unhappiness with the party's partiality to pro-genocide centrists and away from anyone interested in doing something other then capitulating must be a conspiracy.

I'm sure that democrats just found exactly enough votes to avert a shutdown because there are only 10 cowards in the entire caucus.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 2 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Bernie, who is conveniently not a Democrat when people (centrists and leftists) want him to not be a Democrat, wins Democratic primaries. He's not even in the party and he's the supposed example of true leftism opposed to neoliberal centrism, and he still wins the primaries. He could go it alone in a three way race like you wanted, and the all-powerful DNC could rig his primary so he'd be out of their hair for good, but weirdly both don't. Because in the end it's just the votes that matter and winning a primary to clear a lane and then winning a 1-on-1 against the conservatives is easier and more effective.

And no, those things aren't rigging. Opposing coalitions of centrists using their social influence or even antagonistic organizations spending money on advertising does not mean the vote is unfair. And neither of those things go away if you just decide to make a new party. However you label yourselves, you need to be ready and able to beat that.

And people do! AIPAC wanted Omar out too. The party establishment never wanted AOC to win. They both had less money and less influence than the forces arrayed against them, and they won by just doing good politics and convincing regular people to vote for them. Because whatever money and machine politics was against them, the thing that counts is still just votes.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 4 points 5 hours ago

Bernie, who is conveniently not a Democrat when people (centrists and leftists) want him to not be a Democrat

He's also conveniently not a democrat when democrats want to argue in court that they don't have to run fair primaries.

[–] oxysis@lemm.ee 7 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

While it will be a problem I think right now it is worse to stick under the Democrat label. Right now the Democrats are a fascist-lite party which has only served to drag down real progressive candidates and stab the common man in the back in favor of status quo or for needless compromise. The Democratic Party is so deeply rotten that abandoning it is just the better option.

Edit: The Democratic Party is held up by its progressive wing, the progressives help maintain the party’s image of being left wing/centrist. Once the progressives leave the real nature of the party will cause it to collapse under its own failures.

This will not be the first time we have had one of the major parties fall in this nation. Like the Federalists, Democratic-Republicans and Whigs before it, it is time for a dying party to disintegrate. It is time for a new party which actually has to give a shit is formed.

[–] Mog_fanatic@lemmy.world 9 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

You are high off your rocker if you legitimately think you have a better chance of winning as an independent (or whatever they want to call the new party) than a democrat right now. We are so woefully entrenched in a two party system that we need multiple elections cycles just for a third party to even get a foothold in people's minds. I am very very in favor of additional parties and have always thought that the two party system is absolutely terrible for just about everything we wish a government to do but at this point I just don't see it happening for quite some time, epecially with first past the polls voting.

John Adams was painfully accurate in his warning:

Let me now warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party... It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeebles the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms; foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption... There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties.

The whole letter is fantastic and incredibly salient today. But this sums it up decently.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 8 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago) (1 children)

We are so woefully entrenched in a two party system that we need multiple elections cycles just for a third party to even get a foothold in people’s minds.

No, quite the opposite: we need a whole bunch of non-fascist Democrats to spectacularly defect all at once, such that the public perceives the new party as having captured the initiative and momentum. The loss of that public mindshare and base of support would then cause the remaining dregs of the Democratic Party to collapse.

[–] Mog_fanatic@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

What we need and what is are two wildly different things. I also think asking for the collapse of one party and the creation of another is only going to lead you right to the same problem. It may take you a bit to get there but a two party system is a recipe for exactly what you are seeing.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 2 points 18 hours ago

A third party is able to supplant and replace one of the two big parties even under FPTP.

[–] lorski@sopuli.xyz 27 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

they need to take over the party!

[–] Xanza@lemm.ee 10 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

If they take over the party, you have to shoulder the responsibility of everything the parties done in the past. It's easier to just start a new one, because I don't fucking feel like a democrat anymore. I'm tired of calling myself a democrat. Because democrats are spineless feckless fucking morons that spend tens of millions of dollars after they lose an election to find out why, and then do absolutely fucking nothing with that information.

The sheer level of idiocy and hubris required to spend that kind of money to find out a way to fix a problem, and when you have that information do nothing with it is beyond anything the forefathers could have ever fucking dreamed of.

We need to take responsibility, because we broke democracy. The two party system doesn't work anymore. I want out.

[–] Flocklesscrow@lemm.ee 3 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

100% Democrats don't represent me; I am not a Corporation.

I would like a political party that represents actual constituents, and the Dems ain't ever giving up their corp gravy train.

[–] lorski@sopuli.xyz 2 points 4 hours ago

i hear you, the usa is not going to have a 3 party system anytime soon, we need to get out of what appears to be a one party system first. we are not europe.

[–] SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world 53 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

MAGA took over the Republican Party for a reason if the progressives were able to organize their way out of a paper bag they could do it themselves.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 27 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

MAGA took over the Republican Party for a reason

That reason is that the GOP allowed them to. In 2016 the GOP held an extremely competitive primary and actively embraced MAGA as their new path to success, while the DNC decided to make sure a progressive doesn't get the nomination again even at the cost of losing the election.

[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world -2 points 8 hours ago

if the progressives were able to organize their way out of a paper bag

Well, join them.

[–] crusa187@lemmy.ml 1 points 15 hours ago

Justice Dems as a separate party, not just a caucus, all of whom refuse to take corporate bribe money, would be amazing.