this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2024
72 points (90.9% liked)

No Stupid Questions

35831 readers
1213 users here now

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.



Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Why not periods? Why doesn't every sentence in Spanish that isn't a question or exclamation start with a period floating in the sky?

top 29 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] all-knight-party@kbin.run 91 points 7 months ago (2 children)

I would assume it's because it leads the reader to what tone to use in a given sentence. The question mark or exclamation point would be useful in tone throughout the whole sentence, but if neither is present in front of the sentence a regular reading tone could be assumed.

so why add a floating period when nothing being there allows for the same assumption and is much, much simpler and easier?

[–] Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 55 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Still learning Spanish but I believe this is correct, because you can insert a question mark into the middle of a sentence as well if the entire sentence isn’t a question.

Ex:

I have fish, do you want to cook it?

Tengo pescado, ¿quieres cocinarlo?

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 12 points 7 months ago (2 children)

You can do that and it's grammatically correct? :O

[–] DeltaTangoLima@reddrefuge.com 33 points 7 months ago

Language is more than just written script and spoken words - grammar is very language specific too. In Spanish, the example above is indeed grammatically correct.

[–] Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yup! I really like it a lot more than how we do it in English honestly, it’s like quotation marks for a question. It’s very pleasing to me to have something in the sentence clearly highlighting what the question is. If it has any annoyances or drawbacks I’m not at a comprehension level where I’ve run into them.

[–] abcde_fz@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Quotation marks for a question is a beautiful way to say that!

[–] XEAL@lemm.ee 24 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)
[–] frickineh@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)
[–] humorlessrepost@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

Lo estoy intentando, pero sigo ciego.

[–] teft@lemmy.world 52 points 7 months ago (3 children)

It’s because Spanish sentence structure is different from English. In Spanish the sentences “Can I tell you? (¿Te lo puedo decir?) and “I can tell you.” (Te lo puedo decir.) are formed the same way. The initial punctuation lets the reader know that the sentence is a question or exclamation or not so they can parse the sentence properly from the start.

[–] lvxferre@mander.xyz 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Sentence structure likely plays a role but, at the end of the day, it's just a spelling convention - people do it because they do it. And it's generally absent from the standard orthography of Portuguese and Italian, even if they're syntactically similar to Spanish (i.e. no German/English-like VSO for questions).

[–] shikitohno@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's just tradition at this point, though I feel like native speakers really try to oversell its usefulness when someone questions if the opening signs are necessary. People act like they routinely need to read text written like the Cartas de relación out loud, and thus, need the additional warning lest they get lost in the long, multi-clause sentences. Like, I could understand if you had to read something like

Y después acá, por no haber oportunidad, así por falta de navíos y estar yo ocupado en la conquista y pacificación de esta tierra, como por no haber sabido de la dicha nao y procuradores, no he tornado a relatar a vuestra majestad lo que después se ha hecho; de que Dios sabe la pena que he tenido. Porque he deseado que vuestra alteza supiese las cosas de esta tierra, que son tantas y tales que, como ya en la otra relación escribí se puede intitular de nuevo emperador de ella, y con título y no menos mérito que el de Alemaña, que por la gracia de Dios vuestra sacra majestad posee. Y porque querer de todas las cosas de estas partes y nuevos reinos de vuestra alteza decir todas las particularidades y cosas que en ellas hay y decir se debían, sería casi proceder a infinito.

out loud on a regular basis, but even contemporary literary Spanish doesn't tend to have nearly the same amount of sentences that just go one for half a page, much less the sort of stuff people would write to each other normally.

As you've mentioned, other syntactically similar languages do just fine without them, even including other Romance languages spoken in various regions of Spain. The only exception I'm aware of is Asturianu, which apparently also uses them, though apparently they're optionally allowed in Galego Real Academia Galega. On page 38 of the PDF, it says they're entirely optional if you want to facilitate reading by including them.

[–] takeheart@lemmy.world 3 points 7 months ago

Sure they are not strictly necessary, but nice to have. It's like how we capitalizing the first word of every sentence in English. Really helps guide the eye.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Well now I have to wonder why other languages don't do the front punctuation thing. It would be just as helpful in English as it is in Spanish to know a sentence is a question before getting to the end of it. Scrambling to lift your voice into a question you've been reading as a statement until you see the question mark at the end is awkward. lol

[–] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 9 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Scrambling to lift your voice into a question you've been reading as a statement until you see the question mark at the end is awkward

I'd argue this is exactly why it's not necessary on English; what makes it a question tends to be the inflection at the very end so no real need for a warning way at the beginning.

[–] wjrii@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

Also, while English certainly can form questions that are identical to statements ("They fly now?" "They fly now."), it's not necessary or even the most common way. More of the burden for clear communication can be left to the writer.

[–] takeheart@lemmy.world 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The ¿ and ¡ prepare the reader mentally for what's coming and let the speaker adapt pronunciation.

Consider the following 2 sentences in English:

It's raining.

and

It's raining?

Meaning and intonation are different. Luckily our eyes don't read strictly in one direction like a scanner but instead they skip back and forth a lot (saccades) which means your brain registers the question mark even before you get to pronounce the first word. Still it's helpful to have an extra signal at the start of the sentence.

So why no extra dot at the beginning? Because it's the default case. And since the function of the dot is to separate sentences a single one already does the job. Note how there is also no double period when a sentence ends with an abbreviation or abbr. And in headers it's often fully omitted because the layout itself signals the separation from what precedes or follows.

[–] z00s@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

Here's a period: .

Here's an upside-down period: .

Hope that clears things up.

[–] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 5 points 7 months ago

Fun fact but it's actually a pretty recent thing for the language in the first place. While first done in the 1700's iirc, there are Spanish language publications that didn't follow the punctuation rules as recently as the 1900's.

[–] wjrii@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

Period would be the default, so no reason to include it as well. Questions and exclamations have a different tone than simple statements, so it's more useful. It's particularly useful in Spanish, as the word order/conjugation is changed less frequently than in English, so it's going to help a reader understand intent more quickly. It seems like it became established as "proper" in 1754 by Spain's Royal Academy. It also would have been very easy for printers, as they would just chuck their existing type into the tray upside down.