Jessica Watkins (mtf) sentenced to 8 years in a men's prison for Jan 6 involvement : lgbtq

[–] BadEngineering@kbin.social 119 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As little sympathy as I normally hold for any Jan 6 rioters, it is downright cruel to house her in a male prison. From what I've been able to suss out, she has been transitioned since at least 2004 when she did her legal name change. This is a person who has fully transitioned and been living as a woman for nearly 2 decades. Even though she is a traitorous piece of crap she deserves fair punishment under the law. To me, being a woman put into a male prison population should be considered cruel and unusual.

[–] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I'm conflicted. I completely agree with you and all of your points, and I don't want to set a precedent like this.

But she did vote and advocate for the party that wants to keep misgendering her too....

Edit: I know folks, I agree with you all, we shouldn't encourage this. The schadenfreude is sweet, but Ultimately it's a bad thing. We should treat even the people who are against us with the respect we ask for

[–] tburkhol@beehaw.org 56 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I look at it this way: we reveal ourselves by how we treat our helpless opponents.

Perfectly normal to have the emotional response of 'serves her right.' The better person has to stop, set the emotion aside, and ask whether the treatment fits their moral framework. If you can't articulate why a transgendered friend, convicted of some crime, should be cross-housed, then this woman probably shouldn't be, either.

Feeling conflicted is good - it's your rational brain fighting with your emotional brain and winning.

[–] electrogamerman@feddit.de 15 points 1 year ago (6 children)

We (LGBTQ) cant keep tolerating intolerance, or else we are going to end up without rights.

"We have to be the better person", "We reveal ourselves by how we treat our helpless opponents", etc... until we end up shot dead like that woman that put up the rainbow flag.

Fuck that.

[–] hypelightfly@kbin.social 34 points 1 year ago

Having her serve her sentence in the appropriate prison isn't tolerating intolerance. She will still be convicted and be in prison for the duration of her sentence.

[–] dreadgoat@kbin.social 32 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Nobody's asking you to forgive her for what she's done, we're just saying that when your enemies are being raped and tortured, perhaps it would be good for you to say "hmm, can we achieve justice without all the rape and torture maybe?"

[–] dingus@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Truth. As much as I'd like to see these people have some epiphany moment of realizing how wrong they were to back people who would turn on them, they won't. They deserve the better world we want for them, even if they are too much of a cantankerous bastard to ever be thankful for it.

We need a better society that snuffs out such hateful movements before they capture vulnerable people. Because that is what these type of groups (read: cults) operate on, finding vulnerable, lonely people who need to feel like they are part of a group and need to feel like they have a purpose. They offer those things to the lost and broken, even when they know they will turn their own knives back on those they recruit, when the time comes. As we saw with COVID, even facing death won't make them learn they backed the wrong horse, with many of them saying COVID was a hoax until their own rasping, COVID-infected dying breath.

As cathartic letting those who get sucked into these cults suffer the punishment of their own hubris feels, they will learn nothing from it. Better to create a better world around their crappy selves.

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[–] DessertStorms@kbin.social 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Tolerating intolerance would be accepting that transgender people get put in the wrong prison.

It's literally tolerating intolerance.

Doing it because the person in question happens to be a piece of shit, doesn't make it any less tolerating of intolerance or somehow cancels it out.

[–] tburkhol@beehaw.org 21 points 1 year ago

When her killer walks free, you can riot. I'm not asking for tolerance of intolerance; I'm asking you to treat humans like humans or to justify housing Chelsea Manning or Reality Winner in a men's prison.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

Imprisoning people in the correct facility is not "tolerating intolerance", so I'm genuinely very confused how you think that's relevant.

[–] keeb420@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

we can have some sympathy. but at the same time im not gonna lose any sleep over this. what did this person think would happen to lgbtq+ people if trumps coup succeeded? republicans have shown for a long time who they are towards the lgbtq+ community. they've been specifically targeting transgender people since, at the latest, 2016 with all the bathroom crap.

should she be in a womens prison, yes. but when you side with those that would put other transgender people in the wrong prison its hard to have much sympathy or empathy. its better to go high when they go low, sometimes you just need to kick them in the mouth when they go low. and this person is currently getting kicked in the mouth.

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[–] UngodlyAudrey@beehaw.org 50 points 1 year ago

Honestly, how I feel about it is this: I am a woman. No matter what, I am a woman. My gender identity isn't something that can just be taken away, even if I do something awful. She's absolutely a massive piece of shit. But she is still a woman, and should be treated like one.

[–] flipht@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What she voted for is completely independent of what society should be doing. The whole point is that her worldview is fucked and we do not want that worldview informing policy. So celebrating her getting her comeuppance is really just the same revenge fantasy that regressives push in lieu of actual policy.

She's very likely going to be sexually assaulted and scarred for life, and I personally feel like this is unacceptable, even if it's a leopard-eating-face moment.

[–] electrogamerman@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

Im not going to lose my sleep for something happening to someone that is electing people that want to take LGBTQ rights away. I agree that she should be in a women's prision. I am in no way celebrating what's happening to her, but she elected her own destiny.

[–] livus@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago

Personally the way I see it is people like that don't get to dictate our standards.

I'm against rape and murder. I'm not going to murder murderers, or rape rapists, or deny human rights to human rights deniers. I don't go round mutilating people who self harm either.

Her misguided beliefs are not relevant to our treatment of her human rights.

[–] acausal_masochist@awful.systems 7 points 1 year ago

And agreeing with her would be a mistake.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago

There is unfortunately nothing unusual about prisoners being raped. That's a problem bigger than just Watkins, and the vast majority of America seems to be completely okay with it. Makes me sick.

[–] Plume@beehaw.org 84 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's almost a guarantee that she is going to be raped multiple times in a men's prison. And while you could say that she is supporting the people who make this happen, leopards eating faces and all that, and therefore, had it coming... no one deserves this. Being principled means standing for your enemies when it's necessary, even if you know they wouldn't do the same for you.

Does she deserves prison? I mean... I guess, if we think prison is good, then yes? But that's a whole other debate. But I'm seeing it like this: On one hand: It's a Trump supporter dipshit who stormed the fucking capitol and is getting what's coming to them, fuck them. But on the other hand: It's a trans woman being thrown in a men's prison and is therefore going to be raped multiple times and/or be forced to be stuck in solitary the whole time. And that is not ok, at all.

[–] heartlessevil@lemmy.one 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

It's also not okay to attempt treason (and be bad at it, too.) She will be in protective solitary confinement and and solitary is where she belongs.

I realize solitary is considered torture, but not too long ago we would just straight up execute treasoners. This is an improvement.

[–] Plume@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't care. It doesn't make it OK.

Beside, I hate the idea of a citizen committing "treason". I have absolutely no loyalty whatsoever to my country, I just happen to be born there, I didn't chose it, I didn't signed up for it.

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[–] Scary_le_Poo@beehaw.org 61 points 1 year ago (3 children)

In this case sexual assault is almost a guarantee. If for no other reason at all, that one should be enough to warrant her being housed in a women's prison.

I love beehaw. The leftists here are shining examples of how we as a society should behave. We universally distain what she stands for and what she has done, but pretty much all of us advocate for her humane treatment. I am so thankful that I signed up for this instance instead of one of the others.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 24 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

We're not going to get our wish either way, unfortunately. I very seriously doubt that rape is only commonplace in men's prisons. Our prisons appear to be specifically designed to encourage and maximize prisoners raping each other, because everyone on the outside considers that part of the punishment (“don't drop the soap”).

[–] OttoVonGoon@beehaw.org 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Your comment made me curious, so I looked it up and found a 2006 study that says you are absolutely correct, inmate-on-inmate sexual violence is almost 4 times higher in women's prisons: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2438589/ I seriously did not expect that.

[–] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago

Wow. I expected it to be lower but still prevalent. Definitely didn't expect it to be four times higher.

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[–] Pulptastic@midwest.social 56 points 1 year ago

The cognitive dissonance of a trans trump supporter blows my mind.

[–] heliodorh@beehaw.org 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

She is a very foolish and hateful person, and to me, very hateful people are usually deeply insecure and fearful individuals. This is why (imo) they are so receptive to cult-like thinking and conspiracy theories. She has done real damage to herself and others by letting her fearful emotions dictate her behavior. Now she's seeing the results of that foolishness, and I think she's realized, at least somewhat, that she fucked up.

Sure, too little too late is real easy to say here (and that was my knee-jerk reaction too) but we've got to keep the door open for the folks who are actually willing, for however briefly, to break away from the cult of hate mindset and ask for help. Like think about watching a cult documentary where you see folks being preyed on and recruited in because of their financial precarity or lack of sustainable support networks. You want those people to escape. If they do heinous shit while in the cult, you want them to experience consequences, but you also want them to escape.

This alt-right shit is just like that, in a way. And we need to support people like this who are trying to escape, even if they fucked up royally during their time with the cult. We don't have to forgive them for their fuck ups, but we do need to leave the door open and show them it doesn't need to be like this. I hate to say it but we need to educate. And yes I'm over having to educate every fucking day of my life but we've got to do it, especially considering states are ripping away any semblance of a balanced, empathetic education right now. A whole generation is being set up to fail and cause harm. We've got to fight back.

I embrace her - not her actions, but her worth as a human being with the capacity and even, it seems, willingness to change. What she did was despicable but she's apologized; she may be lying but I can't know that, so I have to accept her remorse at face value and hope that she follows through.

But the cult is very insidious. If she doesn't receive support now, she'll fall back into that mindset, I guarantee it. Now is the time to be gracious and extend her a hand that, based on her actions, maybe she doesn't deserve. But we need to do it anyway.

[–] Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.com 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

She has 8 years to figure that out.

Being LGBT and support this craziness? Maybe she'll need even more time to get it right...

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 1 year ago (9 children)

She won't figure shit out in a mens prison. It will be 8 years of torture and trauma.

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[–] frog@beehaw.org 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm conflicted about how to react to this. Sticking strictly to reason and compassion, obviously she's a woman and belongs in a women's prison. Yet it would be a lie to say a part of me doesn't have that visceral, emotional "did she really think she was so special that the leopards wouldn't eat her face even though they've been baying for years about all the faces they want to eat?"

I think it's okay to think she's an awful, horrible, stupid human being, but still believe that she has the right to be treated humanely.

[–] 7heo@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

When push comes to shove, and people get a taste of their own medicine, it is also an opportunity to teach them to change their ways. After all, if I am not mistaken, prisons are not originally meant for punishment, but for isolating dangerous individuals while giving them a chance at becoming a better version of themselves. Of course, I know that modern prisons are absolutely different, and much more likely to antagonise prisoners than lead them to better themselves... So this would require changing the carceral system as a whole.

Also, regarding the men vs women prison, I think there is an even more problematic aspect: Transexuals already have to deal with daily harassment and abuse in their day-to-day life, in our "normal" society. So there is a high chance they would get more of that in any prison, be it for men or for women. I think they should have their own wings, to prevent such risks of abuse.

[–] frog@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Agreed. I've been thinking about this overnight, and since it seems unlikely that Watkins' right-wing allies will do anything to help her, maybe if people on the left fight for her, it'll give her an opportunity to grow.

Also, yes! There's a solid argument that prisons should only be used for individuals that are too dangerous to be roaming society, and only then until they've been rehabilitated, where possible. I don't think prison sentences for non-violent crime serve any real purpose - even for the "punishment" element of dealing with crime, it would be better for society if non-violent criminals did volunteer work in the community or something similarly constructive/reparative, something that helps forge connections with others rather than cutting them off.

Definitely agreed that trans people should have their own wings. That is the case in some places. In the UK prisons have separate wings for vulnerable inmates, and that's where trans prisoners generally end up. It's part of why all the recent fuss about a trans woman with a history of sexual violence being housed in a women's prison was a bit of an overreaction: she was kept in a segregated wing and never actually had any contact with other prisoners. That said, there are questions about whether she was genuinely trans, because she was a rapist who started transitioning after being convicted - I do believe that when someone with a history of sexual assault transitions in prison, it's a reasonable to ask a lot of questions. But whether she was being honest or not, she was never in a position to actually hurt anyone, and moving her back to a male prison would also require she be segregated from the general population.

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[–] green_witch@beehaw.org 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Trying to remain sympathetic, but this is exactly what the side she was supporting would've wanted to happen to her. Or worse. Either way, absolute yikes...

[–] PostmodernPythia@beehaw.org 19 points 1 year ago

Gender identity isn’t something you stop respecting because of a bad take, no matter how bad. She should go to a women’s prison for a long time. But, unless there are people willing to defend a refusal to accept someone’s gender and rape as a de facto punishment for a crime, this is indefensible. It’s extra (and barbaric) punishment because she’s trans. That’s wrong. Period.

[–] Obonga@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The US prison system can choke on a bunch of dicks. I would not wish that on the worst shit heads because i simply do NOT enjoy rape. Maybe people should think really hard about why they think rape is funny when it happens to bad people. What a wicked and disgustingbsense of justice.

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[–] flyingjake@lemmy.one 17 points 1 year ago

Definitely good points made here and I agree, as much as this is a lamf moment, it is right on so many levels to advocate for her humane treatment.

[–] Catasaur@lemmy.catasaur.xyz 15 points 1 year ago

cw: sexual violence

Not only do the more violent incarcerated people rape incarcerated trans people, the fucking prison guards actually "give them over" to said violent prisoners, by knowingly assigning them to a cell together to placate the violent one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_people_in_prison#V-coding

Happens to cis men as well, if you are perceived as effeminate or known to be gay. Donny the Punk (Stephen Donaldson) was a prison reform activist who brought a lot of attention to sexual assault in male prisons.

His Wikipedia page is a tough read, but he is basically one of the first people to organize around this and bring the issue to American consciousness.

Defund the police was a watered down psyop. Abolish prisons and police.

LGBTQ+