this post was submitted on 11 Mar 2024

190 points (88.6% liked)

Technology

59201 readers

2880 users here now

This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.

Our Rules

Follow the lemmy.world rules.
Only tech related content.
Be excellent to each another!
Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
Politics threads may be removed.
No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed

Approved Bots

founded 1 year ago

MODERATORS

190

Electric cars will be cheaper to make than gas vehicles but with much higher repair and insurance costs (www.notebookcheck.net)

submitted 8 months ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world

60 comments fedilink hide all child comments

top 50 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] reddig33@lemmy.world 138 points 8 months ago (2 children)

They should be cheaper to repair since there are less parts. The added costs are related to design decisions.

When things are welded together instead of paneled, it’s more expensive. When battery packs have to be replaced in their entirety instead of individual packs or cells, it’s more expensive. Etc. Etc.

[–] podperson@lemm.ee 53 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Exactly. Example: on the Tesla Model 3, many of the panels (such as the rear quarter panel) are glued on instead of bolted/clipped on. So if you graze a stationary object and damage that (it happens), you're on the hook for a very expensive repair since you need a repair shop that specializes in how to deal with that (plus the actual time to do the repair, which is more complicated). Update the designs to make them more repair friendly and the cost of ownership comes way down.

[–] ShepherdPie@midwest.social 14 points 8 months ago (1 children)

What car has removable rear quarters? I can't think of any that aren't welded on to the C-pillar/roof/trunk.

[–] fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago

Basically all modern car body panels are held together with basically a really strong glue.

[–] Socsa@sh.itjust.works 5 points 8 months ago

This is literally every single car on the road

load more comments (1 replies)

[–] rimu@piefed.social 92 points 8 months ago

Just because Tesla made a lot of bad choices, that doesn't mean all EVs for all time will always be more expensive.

[–] ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works 75 points 8 months ago (1 children)

This is what happens when you can DRM every piece of the car. Tesla is being taken as a model, and it's extremely anti consumer

[–] just_another_person@lemmy.world 13 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I don't think theyre being used as an example at all. A lot of these first generation platforms are still just trying to figure stuff out, and unless they all glob onto an existing platform, they'll never deviate from one another. Competition is good, especially to drive innovation in the early days of new fields of products like these. Most of the bigger companies have opened their platforms or pieces thereof, but that doesn't need to mean open-source. We should rely on legislature and right to repair to reign some of the anti-competitive bullshit they all pull in though, I do agree with that.

[–] abhibeckert@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

Sorry but there just isn't that much to figure out. Cars have had electric motors and batteries for as long as cars have had motors (literally - early cars didn't have a combustion engine).

You take an ordinary car, bolt a big ass motor and battery to it somewhere, and you're done. Nothing innovative needs to happen and there should be no repairability compromises. If anything they should be easier to repair.

Tesla's obsession with complex body parts is inexcusable. I used to work in the car crash insurance industry - we put Tesla in the same category as Bugatti/McLaren/etc. They're that expensive to repair... and unlike those supercars, nobody is going to be willing to spend the money get a Model 3 back to show room condition.

Get yourself in a minor fender bender like the one below and your insurance company is going to buy you a new car (the owner of this car was given a $45,000 repair quote):

With a conventional car, those panels would have likely been plastic (cheap to replace) or else metal but simple designs that can be bent back into shape by someone who knows how to use a panel beating hammer. What you don't see on the photo is all the weld joints that have been stressed and failed on the Tesla. It can potentially be months of work to get that car fixed and the insurance company doesn't want to provide a hire car for all that time - so they just pay out the value of the car and leave you to buy a new one.

load more comments (2 replies)

[–] Dariusmiles2123@sh.itjust.works 56 points 8 months ago (3 children)

I’ll probably buy an electric car one day, but I’ll be paying a lot of attention to its repairability. We have to make sure brands understand that « programmed obsolescence » isn’t accepted by everyone!

[–] Badeendje@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Lawmakers should fix that. Nothing a consumer can do here. If you know up front you can avoid a brand, but with the OTA updates and stuff they can just pull a bait and switch.

[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 8 points 8 months ago (1 children)

This consumer will be doing his part by not buying any car made after 2018

[–] maynarkh@feddit.nl 2 points 8 months ago

But they do. Individual action can't right systematic wrongs.

[–] pumpkinseedoil@feddit.de 6 points 8 months ago (2 children)

You might want to take a look at Aptera. If we're lucky they'll sell their first cars in 1-5 years

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 5 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Why do you think Aptera will be better on this issue? I was very disappointed by the decision not to paint their vehicles. It’s hard to see how that won’t lead to a substandard product.

[–] magiccupcake@lemmy.world 10 points 8 months ago (2 children)

It looks very modular, with company claiming a right to repair philosophy.

The painting seems to be aiming for a lower emissions vehicle, cheaper costs. Given that the body is not metal replacing panels should be easier if they get damaged.

Not to mention battery size doesn't need to be as large, so replacing it should be viable.

I'm hopeful but still got see how everything shakes out.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 7 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Cheaper costs for sure. Not sure about the rest. I understand the environmental costs associated with paint but it’s an important part of weather proofing in the current production model. Vinyl wraps just aren’t going to perform as well or last as long, are shifting a big cost onto the consumer, and raise questions about the longevity of the product. This will also have large environmental cost due to shortened lifespan.

I’m glad they’ve mentioned right to repair but I’d like to see where that rhetoric is backed by action. Otherwise it’s just more capitalist spin.

[–] magiccupcake@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I think I heard mentioned that they expect the wrap to last 5-10 years, which isn't great, but not terrible.

I don't think they have a choice with right to repair, as changing their stance would be detrimental to their following.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

The typical number from the industry is 3-7. And realistically, we’re looking at the low end here—sun exposure is the most important factor. It’s a fucking solar car. Maybe if you live in Alaska and park in a garage all the time it could make it to 10 years but if I buy an aptera I would park it in the sun. I also live in one of the sunniest climates in the US. I don’t want to have to spend thousands redoing this every 3 years.

I thought about putting down a deposit but decided against it for this reason. I’ll want to see how they do for a few years on the road before buying in. Especially with the recent price increases.

[–] magiccupcake@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

I put down a deposit recently, like last month, but I have a similar outlook. I wanna see how they do after a few years to see how they hold up first. But if they look good and start selling like hotcakes I might be glad I put a deposit down early. Otherwise I'll cancel and get a Chevy bolt begrudgingly.

I wanna be optimistic because I do want Aptera to at least push the whole industry towards more repairable efficient and cheep evs.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 2 points 8 months ago

I hope so but I just feel like disappointment is inevitable in this corporate production model. Even if people set out to do the right thing, the economic system forces people to behave the same ways.

load more comments (1 replies)

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 4 points 8 months ago

I hadn't heard of them, but looking it up it seems like tech startup garbage. You don't need to re-invent the car. It looks like they made a silly design just to stand out. It also sacrafices a lot for that design. It's a two seater with very little storage room and probably not great for taller people like me. It also seems to have very little space for crumple-zones, so I'm curious as to how safe it is in an accident.

[–] randomaside@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 8 months ago

They listen and say "We hear you but the data shows you much rather have the Witcher 3 running on your dashboard and webcam more easily monetize this."

[–] filister@lemmy.world 27 points 8 months ago

The title is misleading, because nothing stops ICE car manufacturers from adopting the same unicast build bodies of those cars, and then EV will still be more expensive to make but with similar repair and lower maintenance cost.

But I really hope that common sense will prevail, even though I am doubtful.

[–] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 21 points 8 months ago

Time to standardize connectors, control panels, battery sizes, motors etc.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee 15 points 8 months ago (3 children)

Unfortunately used EVs are still decades away from being viable since after 10 years you hit the point you most likely start needing to replace the battery. You aren't buying used if you need to invest more in replacement parts than the car itself.

I'm fine with that though, we need vehicles on rails instead. 80% of all microplastic are from tires.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 12 points 8 months ago

Batteries don’t suddenly die, but lose capacity over time. I believe batteries are already demonstrating 80+% capacity after ten years, and they should only get better as technology improves.

LFP batteries used in lower end models, such as Tesla Model 3/Y Standard, are expected to hold capacity after many more charge cycles

[–] Oderus@lemmy.world 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Replacing EV batteries is very rare, even in older or very used EV's

https://youtu.be/DL8ot9JqS78?si=E4fCyBE3p2sdwFmM

[–] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 3 points 8 months ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

https://piped.video/DL8ot9JqS78?si=E4fCyBE3p2sdwFmM

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

[–] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

They don't seem to mention how fast batteries actually degrade, how old those vehicles are, what climate conditions they are used or how many charging cycles are on those. It's all well and good if the 15000 cars have a low amount of battery replacements but without knowing the conditions it's kinda useless.

Like where I am the temperature goes from -20C to +30C pretty much every year and in those conditions the makers rate the lifespan from 8 - 12 years.

[–] Oderus@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago

It would be nice if they provided that information but the data isn't useless without that information. It helps show that there's a pattern where batteries only lose 10% capacity after being driven a lot.

You can assume that EV's with higher milage will have been charged far more often than those with less mileage.

Canadian here and yeah, it can get down to -30C and +30C here but remember all batteries are insulated and they run glycol though them to keep them at a constant temperature which negates any external factors like weather. Polestar does their testing in the Artic circle so it's even colder so if it works well there, it'll work well anywhere.

With more EV's sold and more time passed, only then will we better understand battery life but based on what I'm seeing, it's a minor issue that won't stop me from buying an EV.

[–] Nurgle@lemmy.world 3 points 8 months ago

Tire runoff is nasty. There’s recently been salmon die off in the NW from a preservative chemical in tires.

[–] postnataldrip@lemmy.world 8 points 8 months ago

I wonder if this kind of thing might make conversions into older cars more viable. If the body and the million computers etc will cost heaps to fix in a newish EV, that might mean an increased supply of electric drivetrains at the wreckers. They're not exactly a drop-in proposition but having the parts available has to be a good start.

load more comments