this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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No Stupid Questions

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[–] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 64 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Lots of good answers here, but one I haven't seen is that some people have different value systems. They would be the ones that say "yes, human rights would be nice, but at what cost?"

Typically, as everyone here has pointed out, they value their own well being and comfort. "We can't end child slave labor because then a KitKat would cost $20." They might cite economic priorities, national or personal security, religious beliefs, or civic pride (see: China).

[–] dustyData@lemmy.world 34 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

It always boils down to the same core belief: “It's OK for some humans to suffer and die in indignity.” The cruelty is the point. Yes, it's a different value system, but usually it's about putting something other than humanity above everything else. Be it money, religion or ideology, it's always about the idea that some material or conceptual object is more valuable than human life and dignity. The other face of that coin is dehumanization, which is the idea that, “yes all humans deserve basic rights, but did you see what they did? They obviously are animals who don't deserve rights.”

[–] hushable@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

Another common argument I've heard is regarding crime and criminals. Some politicians in my country tout that you cannot arrest criminals and we spend a fortune maintaining jails as if they were 5 star hotels. This is of course not true, but it does rail up the tough on crime crew who believe the only reason crime is rampant it is because it somehow allowed by human rights.

Since human rights are international agreements, it makes for an easy scape goat for those who believe in crazy conspiracy theories

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[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 29 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Misunderstanding. For example it’s embarrassing how long I opposed feminism because I only read extreme scare stories about it, never realizing how much of what I took for granted in relationships between genders was a hard fought victory for feminism and all of us. Then when we had our first child, who were the only people standing up to say my company should have paternity leave? Feminists.

I have a more conservative brother who is very much against affirmative action. However he sees firsthand the results of blindly promoting people to meet diversity goals without regard to ability. Meanwhile I’ve been at companies who pay attention to both, resulting in a much more successful workplace

Or are we going political? Clearly the Palestinian situation is a crime against humanity, but do I oppose human rights by saying that is much more complex and it’s not as simple as Israel just stopping?

[–] bartolomeo@suppo.fi 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Or are we going political?

Not a political issue.

do I oppose human rights by saying that is much more complex and it’s not as simple as Israel just stopping?

Yes. This is a cowardly way of siding with the oppressor and (contrary to the question of this post) indirectly saying one is against not only human rights but also international law, in favor of one's feelings, or to avoid the inconvenience of acknowledging a wrongdoing and not being moved to rectify it. In the least. Not even with words on an online forum.

There is no neutrality when it comes to human rights, you either support them or you are fine with some people not having them, in which case they are not a right.

Is it complicated for Russia to pull out of Ukraine and respect international law? Is it complicated because they have a historical right to that land? Is it complicated because Russia has the right to self defense against NATO encroachment? Do you condemn NATO? You and I personally, dear commenter, are not enemies by any definition of the word, but if the narrative has one excusing war crimes because "it's complicated" then the narrative is our enemy. Should Hamas face an international court? Absolutely. Should Israel face an international court? Absolutely. Should all violence stop right this second? Absolutely. Our actions (or lack thereof) decide whether we live in a world of law or a world of brutal autocracy.

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[–] illiterate_coder@lemmy.world 20 points 11 months ago

I doubt anyone you are talking to is opposed to all human rights, that sounds very much like a straw man statement. Reasonable people can disagree about whether any particular right should be protected by law.

The reason is simple: any legally-protected right you have stands in direct opposition to some other right that I could have:

  • Your right to free speech is necessarily limited by my right to, among other things, freedom from slander/libel, right to a fair trial, right to free and fair elections, right to not be defrauded, etc.
  • Your right to bodily autonomy can conflict with my right to health and safety when there is a global pandemic spreading and you refuse vaccination.
  • Your property rights are curtailed by rules against environmental harm, discrimination, insider trading, etc.

No right is ever meant to be or can be absolute, and not all good government policy is based on rights. Turning a policy argument into one about human rights is not generally going to win the other person over, it's akin to calling someone a racist because of their position on affirmative action. There's no rational discussion that can be had after that point.

[–] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 19 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

religion goes a long way to dehumanizing others, even in the same household

[–] frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 16 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

Normally, to be honest, it's because they want to hurt someone. Look at the Conservatives in the UK, who are desperate to repeal human rights legislation so that they can send refugees to Rwanda without right of appeal.

Note that those Conservatives still think that they have human rights. Their excuse for depriving refugees of human rights is that some of them have entered the country illegally. Yet, none of them thinks any Conservative MP should be detained arbitrarily or deported, even though they now acknowledge that they, their government and their party have broken the law in various ways. No, they want to strip rights from other people. Their argument doesn't wash.

[–] originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com 19 points 11 months ago

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect" - Frank Wilhoit

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I feel like whenever a law like this is written, a coin should be flipped, and all of the people who voted to pass the law have that law applied to them based on the outcome of that coin flip. And that should be fine right? It's a fair and equitable law, respecting human rights.

It's like the classic traffic engineering joke, how do you get the speed limit increased? You rigorously enforce the speed limit where the The legislators live and drive

When two children are arguing about sharing something, the diplomatic adult has one of the children divide the thing into two piles, and the other child gets to choose which pile they want. We need to get more of that do unto others as you would have done unto yourself into politics

[–] frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 5 points 11 months ago

Right, it's like when people try to justify colonialism. Would they be okay with their country being conquered and turned into a colony? No? Okay, so we've established colonialism is wrong. Everything after that is increasingly ludicrous special pleading. 'Oh, but country X was more economically developed, so it was okay,' is only a consistent argument if you actually go on to say '... and that's why it would be a good thing if South Korea conquered Italy.'

[–] joel_feila@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

This remibds of a police raid during the trump years in Kentucky. "They are hurting the wrong peole" said one woman as a mexican man was departed leaving his wife and kids behind.

Very mask off moment. Just admitting the role of law is harming some people.

[–] vsg@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Some people live in dangerous places and believe that treating criminals like human beings is the same as ignoring their crimes. These people believe that human rights should only be for those who deserve it by not harming the "good citizen".

[–] joel_feila@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

Part of it is disagreement over what should be a right. I have genuinely met people that belive rights like protest, movment, voting, legal rep, should not given they must be earned. So they are pro rights just a very limited list.

Example say "health care is a right" in the usa.

[–] TheInsane42@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

I guess because they think they are superior and forget that human rights include their own rights.

So yea, the "because they're stupid" answer sums it up nicely.

[–] Nemo@slrpnk.net 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I had this experience a short while back, and it really shook me. Granted, this was on the Internet, where people are more willing to say wild things or generally go mask-off, but I was downright flabbergasted. I'll try to summarize the various arguments without inserting my own bias:

  • because they view human rights as a social or legal concept, and not inherently more important than other social or legal principles

  • because we as humans haven't historically respected them, and don't respect them universally even now, so demanding respect for human rights is a form of privilege

  • because the idea of human rights requires a belief that humans have special dignity above that of other creatures (this one I found especially irksome, because I found the arguments denigrating to animal rights)

  • because various groups advocating for human rights don't agree on what those rights are, so blanket support for human rights is not something they can do

I'll try to find the reddit post where this took place if I can. It was... it was something. If I've misrepresented any of the arguments above, it was not intentional but only because I find them so alien that I cannot understand them properly.

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[–] mydude@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

The ownerclass benefits from people not having protections. I don't think you can put it any simpler than this. Slaves, child labour, debt cycles, prison labour, forced sex labour, all examples of none-existant or low protections.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Because some people lack the empathetic skills to put themselves in a disadvantaged position. They can't conceive of a world where they don't have their current privileges.

When you have all the privilege, equal rights feels like a downgrade.

[–] bstix@feddit.dk 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Some people even think they're the ones in a disadvantaged position, even if they're not, but they'll always feel entitled to getting something when others get something.

I don't quite understand this selfish entitlement, but I see it happen in many situations. It also applies to human rights for people on the other side of the globe, because from their perspective there is only one world, theirs.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 11 months ago

Yeah, I think this touches upon equality of outcomes vs equality of opportunities which is always a vigerous debate.

[–] OnlyTakesLs@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Theres a lot of different ideas of what human rights should be. Abortion is the easiest example. Its a human right to abort, which to some is murder. In that case, it would make sense to be against to be against human rights, if you believe that right is to murder.

[–] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 3 points 11 months ago

Or from the other perspective, pro life people see Abortion as violating the right to life.

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[–] Phen@lemmy.eco.br 8 points 11 months ago

Because they have been lied to about what it means.

[–] REdOG@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

Some people define things differently than reality has ascribed, what are rights, while others are just cruel.

Ever wonder why ghosts keep up with modern language trends?

[–] ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Slavery (as an abstract, not necessarily racially motivated) has A LOT of benefits for the owning class.

I'm also vehemently opposed to any and all of it's forms, just fyi.

[–] Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Either to troll, or misrepresenting the phrase for a "gotcha" moment, such as... "I believe in ORGANISM rights, not just humans deserve them!"

Or possibly a truly shitty person. That's always an option.

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[–] GreyShuck@feddit.uk 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

In addition to the reasons suggested in several of the comments here so far, the philosopher Giorgio Agamben is extremely critical of the concept of human rights since they are a legal and political construct, and the same legal and political systems are used to create 'exceptional' circumstances in which the rights are deemed not to apply to certain groups. Relying on these rights is flawed, in his view, since they will be suspended when most needed. The Philosopize This Podcast did an episode on this just recently.

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[–] watson387@sopuli.xyz 5 points 11 months ago

They're a piece of shit human.

[–] imhotep1@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

I am a "privileged whitevl guy" who married into a central American refugee family, and I can say there are a lot of people in developing countries that love human rights, but hate when they are applied to specific groups. Because if everyone has nothing, trying to help marginalized groups seems unfair to the majority who is also oppressed.

So if you want to fight femicide, or anti-LGBT discrimination, people not in that group often get angry because they want help too.

I obviously don't agree, but I understand the viewpoint given their life experiences. What I don't understand is when I meet Americans/1st world people who express the same sentiments. They need to go fuck themselves in the ass with a rusty spork and die of sepsis.

Only evil people and the ignorant are opposed to human rights.

[–] ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

In what context did this happen?

[–] PatFussy@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

Maybe your understanding of human rights is different than theirs. Maybe

[–] Ninjazzon@infosec.pub 3 points 11 months ago

Because he/she is a psychopath?

[–] MightEnlightenYou@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

There are many variations of human rights declarations. I oppose this one the most: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rights_in_Islam

There are also specific articles in the universal declaration of human rights that I think are wrong

[–] frankPodmore@slrpnk.net 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

There are also specific articles in the universal declaration of human rights that I think are wrong

Do you mind saying which ones?

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Not OP, but there's a handful of things that can be found problematic dependingon your beliefs.

  • The concept of legal or constitutionally granted human rights.
  • The right to a minimum standard of living.
  • That these rights exist so long as they are used in ways approved by the United Nations.
  • The right to a nationality, enshrines the concept of a nation as a human right.
  • Predominantly western influence in terms of inclusion, exclusion, and language.
  • The lack of any force of law.
[–] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

The concept of legal or constitutionally granted human rights.

The lack of any force of law.

You oppose human right because you oppose human rights? But you also oppose them because they are not really rights?

It sounds like your position would necessitate a bit more explanation.

[–] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Human rights are things that a person has simply by existing, referring to them as granted through legal or constitutional processes is backwards. It essentially cheapens the concept of human rights, which is a totally valid criticism.

The lack of force of law is, because the charter is basically meaningless. A country can agree to it and ignore it without any real consequences.

[–] vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 11 months ago

Ah yes, that was the explanation I needed. Thanks.

[–] MightEnlightenYou@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Article 16.3

The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

I disagree that the family is the fundamental group unit of society.

Article 25.2

Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

I feel discriminated that motherhood and not fatherhood are entitled to special care.

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[–] ieightpi@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

I think this video sums it up pretty well.

https://youtu.be/2IrG68YTMjo?si=sMu6TrT9M0Sl0TXJ

If you haven't watched Innuendo Studios content, it's informative and to the point.

[–] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 1 points 11 months ago

It depends on the context. In some cases the person might be taunting you to defend your position, or simply trying to avoid some subject.

But let's say that the person says this out of the blue, and is proselytising this view that human rights should be opposed. In this situation I believe that the person thinks that they benefit from denying human rights to other people; it's mostly selfish. (And worse, stupid - the person will be likely in the short end of the stick.)

[–] MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

It's a requirement for Republicans, apparently.

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