this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2023
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Piracy

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[–] Spaghetti_Hitchens@kbin.social 243 points 1 year ago (40 children)

Indie solo video game dev here.

I am okay with gamers "requisitioning" games if they truly can't afford it. While it is my livelihood, it's also my attempt at art and I want people to enjoy it. I even plan on releasing a safe cracked copy for the next game.

If you pirate a game, there are ways to help support us starving devs if you like the game.

  1. Spread the word far and wide that you like the game. A little effort on your part can save us marketing budget and trigger new sales.

  2. In the future if you have the financial ability, buy a legit key on sale. Even at 75%+ discount it helps.

But please don't cost us additional money. It costs time and money to process chargebacks triggered by the key resellers selling keys procurred with stolen credit cards.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 45 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Unless you plan on implementing any other stronger DRM than the steam provided one. I wouldn't bother releasing a safe version.

It's brutally simple to crack steam drm on your own. You just need the clean files from cs.rin.ru/forum or something.

Unsafe cracks will be published elsewhere anyways if your game is popular enough.

I suggest you just don't add any DRM at all.

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[–] Seathru@beehaw.org 89 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

NiX:

I love you guys and postal series, but I’m not made of money, if I can get a game for cheaper I’d rather pay less than more.

Running With Scissors:

Which is why we’re telling you to pirate our games instead of paying a scammer who will cost us money and probably even get your key revoked Our games are cheap right now through official sites. Is saving a few cents worth lowering the chances for releasing another POSTAL game?

NiX:

Isn’t pirating illegal? You want your fans get fines and shit? Now they are on sale so I might pick up some but normally i still rather get the game of g2a for cheaper

Running With Scissors:

You can’t get fines if the owners of the IP give you permission to download. Just know that by getting on G2A, we not only get no money, we also have to pay for the chargeback, that’s the core of the problem and it means no new games in the future and no more RWS

Edit: fixed formatting.

[–] NateSwift@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’d be super interested in reading the full interview if you could point me to it? I’m not familiar with the “NiX” acronym

[–] Seathru@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It was part of a twitter thread that I'm too much of a luddite to figure out how to link. Last comment: https://twitter.com/RWSstudios/status/1671832971601408000#m

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[–] Zoot_@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Ive never seen a company have this take. Interesting

[–] CountVon@sh.itjust.works 104 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Key resellers are really, truly awful. In many cases the keys are purchased from legitimate sites using stolen credit card numbers. The key resellers plead ignorance as to where the keys come from, but it's an open secret at this point. If you don't want to pay the Steam/Gog price, piracy is less awful because you won't be fueling a criminal enterprise and there's no chance your Steam/Gog account will get a stolen key revoked.

Credit card fraud and software keys actually ends up being paid for by the rest of us. Fraudulent transactions and chargebacks lead to higher merchant fees, and those costs end up getting passed on to legitimate purchasers.

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[–] AnonTwo@kbin.social 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

Most of the keys are obtained illegally (stolen accounts and/or credit cards) so eventually the money gets taken back. So not only was the game stolen but the indie has to go through processing the takeback which costs them money on top of it.

And since the takeback issue can occur the person purchasing could lose their game without even realizing it and then complain to the devs when it wasn't even their fault.

You're basically double-dipping and ensuring that actual costs are involved.

edit: brain fuzzy. Chargeback is the word.

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[–] aeternum@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

the movie "the man from earth: holocene" was released by the film makers onto the piracy websites. They'd prefer people see their film for free than not see the film at all.

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[–] whataboutshutup@discuss.online 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hotline: Miami devs supported people in The Pirate Bay threads and said aussies to get their game anyway since it was banned here, iirc.

https://gamerant.com/hotline-miami-pirates/

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[–] JoMiran@lemmy.ml 37 points 1 year ago

The old school pirate philosophy. Pirate the game. If you like the game, buy it. If you loved it, pay full price. The best games are being released by indie devs that could use the money.

[–] GreenMario@lemm.ee 35 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I wonder where sites like GreenManGaming, Fanatical, Humble and IndieGala fit into the mix as I understand it are legit keysellers?

[–] EddyBot@feddit.de 40 points 1 year ago

the listed ones have contracts with publisher to get legit keys where the developer gets it share too

[–] HiDiddlyDoodlyHo@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

At a legitimate website, the developer(s) and publisher(s) make money for each key purchased and every key is legal to own, so there is little chance of a key being revoked and your account banned on your chosen storefront. At a grey market seller like G2A, they can sometimes get their keys illegally (credit card theft, stolen accounts, etc.). So because GMG, Fanatical, Humble, IndiaGala, etc. are all legitimate resellers, they buy their keys directly from the source (usually the publisher or storefront where they are redeemed, but that's just my guess). Apologies if that's not what you were asking.

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[–] Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They'd fall under Steam.

G2A would technically fall under Steam too, except they have a history of buying stolen keys and reselling them (over and over again).

[–] jayandp@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

They buy keys from the devs/publishers directly or legit wholesalers who are known to get the keys from the devs/publishers. Wholesalers themselves don't popup on consumers' radar since they only buy and sell in bulk.

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[–] Kjatten@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'd only buy grey market keys for AAA games, like the slop Ubisoft serves up every year.

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[–] Skedule@lemmy.ml 22 points 1 year ago (3 children)

ELI5, Why are resellers bad? Do they acquire the keys in a shady way?

[–] Sirence@feddit.de 43 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

For example some keys are bought from publishers or devs with stolen credit cards to sell on those sites and then the owner of the credit cards will request a charge back one he notices the charges.
Now the dev or publisher has no money for the key, has a fee for the payment and or the charge back and the key is still getting sold on those sites.
Humble bundle once lost about 35k that way for example.

The key resellers should have security implemented to prevent such stolen keys from being sold but they don't, enabling those scammers.

[–] Eneryi@feddit.de 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How can the key still be sold after the chargeback? Is there no way for the devs to deactivate it?

[–] Aux@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Because keys are randomly generated. To block them, you need some cloud infrastructure and force players to always be online. That's expensive for indy developers and gamers hate online requirements for offline games.

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[–] resurge@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Here's a dev explaining it: https://lemmy.ml/comment/2618947

Apparently they do chargebacks, which costs the gamedevs money.
This is something that should have been in the opening post.
It explains why using these sites actually causes harm.
Instead of getting a game at a reduced rate without harming the dev much (just losing a sale) you're actually harming the dev.

This is something I didn't know and now I'll look more at discounted games on official platforms instead of these key sites.

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[–] Noughmad@programming.dev 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yes.

They steal a credit card, buy the game with it, and sell the game. Then the owner of the credit card (or the credit card issuer) discovers this and demands a refund from the game seller. Processing this refund requires extra work and additional money from the game seller.

For a longer explanation, with successful results, you can read https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-303 .

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[–] Da_Boom@iusearchlinux.fyi 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What shits me off is the number of people who defend these key reselling sites.

I've been utterly lambasted for likening kinguin with G2A in the past. Like really? Their arguments literally fall apart with a small amount of scrutiny, but thet chalk it up to "they say they aren't like other resellers so they aren't" FFS you literally cannot prove that and that's my point. And that's why you DO NOT TRUST THESE SITES.

It's really fucking common in YouTube comments specifically. Especially with youtubers who have been sponsored by these sites in the past.

I have literally unsubbed from youtubers that have advertised these stinkers, the problem is when the likes of MrBeast starts advertising it, people start to think that it's ok.

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[–] XLRV@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago
[–] dan@lemm.ee 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I do not understand why publishers don’t cancel the keys. Why do they allow that parasitic industry to exist? Surely they know which key corresponds to a chargeback?

[–] ChronosWing@lemmy.zip 42 points 1 year ago (9 children)

I don't think the majority of those keys are from stolen credit cards. A lot of them are just purchased in countries where the game is extremely cheap then resold for a profit.

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[–] user1919@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] Malintent@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago

runningwithsissors.com

[–] Gsus4@feddit.nl 15 points 1 year ago

Well, that makes me feel marginally better for never having bought keys in gray market sites like my friend who doesn't pirate because he's afraid of viruses, but then does that to get "amazing discounts".

[–] xantoxis@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Choice of "someone gets the game for free" or "someone gets rewarded for defrauding your customers", that's an easy one, yeah

[–] itscozydownhere@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wondering if store credit for like PlayStation from eneba is of dodgy sourcing too.. how can they have so many..

[–] Squizzy@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They buy with stolen credit cards, sell at a loss which is all profit to them. Cars are legit, but they didn't pay for them. Markdown price is all profit

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