this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2023
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[–] rsh@lemmy.world 83 points 1 year ago (6 children)

In 2020 banks charged $30,000,000,000 in fees. That’s 30 BILLION dollars! By comparison all Hollywood movies make about $11 billion total!

So, for every dollar Americans spent on going to the movies, they spent three on account fees, over draft fees etc.

Banks answer to their share holders. Share holders like money, so banks charge fees.

Bank is a four-letter word.

Do something about the problem. Take away their ability to steal money from people that don’t have it.

Switch to a credit union. Lower or zero fees. Credit unions answer to their members, I.e. account holders.

[–] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What does bank being a four letter word have to do with it?

[–] TommySalami@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"four letter word" is an euphemism for implying something is profanity, akin to words like shit or fuck.

And example would be the fantastic CAKE song, Friend Is a Four Letter Word

[–] PFShady@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

To me, coming from you

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[–] Etterra@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

BuT we'Re tOo BiG To FaiL!

I've used a credit union for over a decade. Easy peasy.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you like that, you're going to love the next bit:

  • Banks create their own money when they make loans.

Surely, I must be ill informed, right?! Nope. Here's a paper from none other than the Bank Of England: Money Creation In The Modern Economy.

Having a Banking License is like having your very own digital "money printing machine": they can't actually print currency (notes and coins) but since most modern money is only 0s and 1s in computers (specifically, amount values associated with client accounts) they can create money like that - basically credit X money to a client account when they loan money and at the same time debit X money from a special account which needs not have that money - and do it again and again untill they hit the certain reserve criteria.

Yes, at the end of the loan period all this gets (or will have during the life of the loan) unwound - the customer pays the principal of the loan, so the bank debits X money from the client account and credits X money to that special account, so everything is properly back to zeros in accounting terms on that special account - all of which would've been as if nothing happenned but ... the bank gets interest and keeps.

That's right, banks get paid interest on money that has never existed, and that interest does have to be created as wealth by the broader Economy, which has massive implications in terms of just how big a share of the wealth produced by the whole Economy banks capture because they can create money out of thin air.

It's not by chance that in the last 2 decades banks have pushed really hard for people to pay everything by card: as long as the money stays digital banks can make money like this to their heart's content (limited only by the reserve criteria) without having to procure notes and coins.

It's also not by chance that in the last 2 decades banks have also pushed really hard for people and companies to become ever more indebted, for the obvious reason that the more money banks create out of thin air as loans the more interest they receive from those loans of made up money.

As for reserve criteria, banks need to have a certain fraction of all the money the loaned out as reserve but last I checked those details (at the time MIFid 3 came out) the so-called "sophisticated banks" with advanced financial modeling tools had the possibility to go as low as 2% - which means 98% of the money they loan is created by them out of thin air.

In practice and if I remember it correctly, around 94% if all money in circulation is created this way.

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[–] BetaDoggo_@lemmy.world 64 points 1 year ago (2 children)

"We've overleveraged ourselves giving out loans that we can't fully back, so here's a contribution fee to ensure that we don't collapse."

-A completely legal financial institution

[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No worries bro. If things get rough for ya the government will just bail you out on behalf of taxpayers. You are all good. Thanks for the fee chap.

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[–] calypsopub@lemmy.world 54 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I have a good friend with severe ADHD. She was in big trouble because of this and about to get evicted and lose her car because of dumb decisions. I took over her finances completely to get her out of the hole. She was racking up more than $500 of overdraft fees per month, had taken out a usurious car title loan, and had a ridiculous amount of credit card debt. It's been 20 years, and to this day she is not allowed to have a credit card. We have tried to set up her life so this doesn't happen again, but the banks keep trying to do her a favor by "allowing" her to overdraw her account, despite instructions not to do so. Life is hell for those with executive dysfunction, and the banks take full advantage of their weakness.

[–] Stumblinbear@pawb.social 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

despite instructions not to do so

Careful with the "overdraft protection" wording. You want it disabled, not enabled.

[–] ettyblatant@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yeah, I learned the hard way that I had to specifically ask the bank to just deny a charge instead of allowing it and then charging me a daily fee. What a fucking racket

I had it turned onto my account before, and I went in a told the manager if it gets turned back on, I’m coming back.

He asked if that was a veiled threat, and I calmly said, does it need to be for it to turned it off permanently? He responded, no and promptly said it will never turned back on.

It’s unfortunate that sometimes they force you to be pushy to a party that is only doing a job for under half the states average to buy a home. I’m not a violent person, but I also don’t like wait until there’s a problem to be jerked around for months.

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[–] Rhaedas@kbin.social 47 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The final nail in the coffin for me was when Bank of America not only charged an overdraft fee for each insufficient charge, they arranged the order highest to lowest coming out that day to maximize the potential fees.

My credit union will also charge a fee for an overdraft. One penny if I can get money in that day to cover it, and they give me a warning so I can do just that.

[–] burgundymyr@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 year ago

That was the exact reason I left BoA and joined a credit union. Plenty of other good reasons to do it, but that actually got me motivated enough to make a switch.

[–] AdamHenry@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Wells Fargo perfected this stacking ruse.

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[–] grayman@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago (23 children)

Get an account at a bank that charges interest for negative balances instead of fees. It's the European banking model. Plenty of smaller US banks do this. Also, STOP BUYING STUFF WITH A DEBIT CARD!!!

[–] red_rising@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There are also plenty of US banks that just don't charge overdraft fees anymore.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And many that transfer from your savings automatically.

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[–] BobGnarley@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Isnt charging interest the same as a fee though? Also, why stop buying with a debit card? Are you advising credit cards are a better choice?

[–] Poayjay@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

No because 12%(?) interest on overdrawing your account by $1 is a lot less than a $35 flat fee. If you overdraw your account you’re basically asking for a loan for the negative balance. It makes more sense to charge like you would for a loan.

I had a bank with “overdraft protection” before. It was basically a $500 line of credit that was activated if you overdrew. The interest rate was terrible, though.

[–] wintermute_oregon@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

To me that’s reasonable. If the interest was 20%. That’s better than the fee. The fee if calculated at an interest rate is robbery.

[–] BigT54@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Credit cards are definitely better than debit cards if you can manage your spending well. The biggest reason for me is that credit cards offer better fraud protection. Say your debit card gets stolen, they can clean out your entire bank account and suddenly you have no money. It will take time for the bank to reverse these charges, meanwhile you have no way to buy necessities. With credit it's not your money and the credit card companies are insured and deal with this stuff daily. You also still have money in your bank account for necessities.

You absolutely have to be careful with credit though, especially if you aren't good at budgeting. It's not free money and will charge interest if not paid off each month, but if you can use it responsibly you can take advantage of the perks, like cash back, points and whatever else they offer.

What I personally do is only use credit cards, I have certain ones that offer the best perks for certain purchases and pay them off in full every month at minimum. You can set them up to be very similar to a debit card and monitor your spending so you don't build up too much debt. It boils down to whether or not you can trust yourself to be vigilant in sticking to a budget.

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[–] asbestos@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Also interested

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[–] deweydecibel@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Feel like Im missing something, here.

If I try to pay with my debit card and there's not enough in my account to cover the transaction, it gets declined.

Moreover, most times I've ever been overdrawn have not been due to a debit card, but a check or bank withdrawal or whatever for a bill or something.

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[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yeah, caution with this advice depending on the kind of person you are. For many issues with CC debit can be far worse than occasional overdraft fees (which are pretty messed up most of the time, agree avoid banks that's are harsh on this). Debit card use keeps real time tabs on how your actual available resources and can help with fiscal responsibility for some. If you keep in top of cc payments and consistently avoid debt, agree that's the way to go, but easier said than done for many.

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[–] Orionza@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

One time my bank did this to me. So I went to the bank and closed my account. The manager asked why. I told him obviously I can't afford to have a bank account. I can still see the look on his face.

[–] Comfortably_Wet@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

And another thing were Europeans are better. Paying "fines" for overdrawing your banking account are illegal as are "fines" for failed withdrawals. We had them in the past for a while but the courts smashed that scheme to pieces. On the other hand, often banks do not even allow overdrawing. You hit Zero? End of the Line. Good Customers often get a credit up to some thousand Euro. I have specifically asked to limit my credit frame to €100. Because even while I don't pay a fine for "overdrawing" I still pay absurde interest rates for overcharging - around 0,03% per day = 12,5% per year.

Then there is another thing, two of the five largest banks for end users in Germany are "cooperative banks" which means they are not allowed to make a profit. They are practically owned by their customers. They aren't exactly "the banks with the best interest rates" but overall a lot more relaxed than the competitors. On the other hand... they don't accept every customer. Mostly small businesses and farmers.

Also all banks are forced to cooperate a lot more than US banks which is why credit cards and their often absurd costs are mostly unknown around here.

Edit, I just checked if my bank also offers to refill my daily account from my other accounts if it reaches Zero... in fact it DOES. For Free.

[–] NaturalViber@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

This scenario is kind of happening to me right now. "Hello, we see that you couldn't afford to make your full phone payment last week and paid half to keep your service active. We will not send the regular reminder text that we usually send a day before. You forgot to pay the rest of your bill. Enjoy paying full price, plus a "reactivation fee".

[–] DirkMcCallahan@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Ah, the joys of capitalism, where it's expensive to be poor.

[–] neutron@thelemmy.club 15 points 1 year ago

It is really, really expensive to be poor.

Having the 'Wealthy Family' DLC purchased right before character creation opens up so many interesting quest paths that aren't the same boring grind. You don't even have to be strategic with INT or PHY stat points, there are plenty of LCK boosts balancing them out.

[–] PP_BOY_@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago (4 children)

My bank let me bond $100 of my own money specifically to protect against overdraft charges. I'd only need to pay them if I went over the $100 overdraft protection. Yall need to stop banking with these giant multinational places and go local

[–] whatwhatwutyut@midwest.social 7 points 1 year ago

My bank has a system where overcharging a checking account can pull from a linked savings account to avoid overdrafts.

Instead of a $35 overdraft fee, you get charged $10 for the intense labor they do of transferring the money for you. /s

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[–] rengoku2@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Not murican.

How the flying fuck is it even possible to overdraw over there? Here where I live banks will auto reject any attempt to go over your limit without explicit requests.

[–] MiDaBa@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Because banks have kept antiquated policies that go back to a time before computers for no other reason other than that it makes them a lot of money. At some point in history your bank account ledger would have been kept hand written on paper that folded out to what they called (get this) a spreadsheet. Each ledger would have been kept at the single branch where the account was opened. Another branch across town would have no idea what your balance was so they would have to accept charges before physically mailing it to your local branch for processing. If the payment didn't clear but the bank had already paid on your behalf then it made sense to charge a fine.
These days literally the only reason for a bank to let an account overdraw is because it makes them a lot of money. They don't care that they are getting rich off of the poorest among us. In my eyes they're no better than sleazy payday loan centers.

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[–] Seudo@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Illegal in Australia. After a ten year legal battle I got mine refunded.

[–] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

There should absolutely be a max percentage of the overdrawn amount, and only one charge.

None of this "we'll let you rack up 10 $3.00 swipes while overdrawn so we can hit you for $350" bullshit.

Or the re-ordering of payments to maximize the fees. Wells Fargo was pulling some bullshit a few years back where if you had $100 in your account and you spent $4 then $5, then $9, then $20, then $105, they'd process the $105 first so they could get you for overdrawing 5 times instead of once.

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[–] MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What I've gathered from the comments here, simply equates to:

Banks are for people with more money than sense, or people wealthy enough to have significant investments and passive income.

If that's not you, go for a credit union, who will be more compassionate to people who may be struggling financially and/or living paycheque to paycheque.

I use a bank because I'm fairly dumb, and also, the bank made it easy for me, with appropriate documentation to create/manage/access my father's funds when he became unable to do it himself. The credit union he used was nearly impossible to work with, and once they found out we had been logging into his online banking to pay his bills because he couldn't remember to do it, they locked out his online access citing that "only the cardholder is allowed to use the online banking system". To get it unlocked we had to take my father, who was going senile and either already had, or would shortly have a confirmed Alzheimer's diagnosis, down to the bank to have it unlocked. Through the entire process, he didn't understand what was happening, but he was able to sign the paperwork, so the bank accepted that; what's ridiculous about the encounter is that the documentation I had, which was power of attorney for assets, was scoffed at, despite being a legal document, signed, dated, with witnesses. They tossed that out without much more than a glance. So once we got the account unlocked, I started a new account at a new bank in his name as a trust account (for him, administrated by me, his legal power of attorney), and we promptly moved all his bills, and all his money to it.

We maintained that account because we couldn't close it. The reason? If you guessed "only the account holder can do that" then you win. We left about $10 in the account and ignored it for several years until my father passed away, we then did the rounds to the banks with the death certificate, closing all the accounts... Unfortunately, he had a handwritten will which they also rejected, so after about 8-10 months of working with a lawyer to get the will certified by the court and have the court appoint my brother as executor, we were finally able to resolve all the banking mayhem that plagued us for the better part of a decade as my father lost his mind. He spent the last few years of his life getting some of the best care available, and about a year after he died, my SO changed jobs (she works in long term care) to that same facility and can confirm, it's one of the best she's ever worked at. It's comforting to know that despite us being put through the ringer by the banks for no good reason, at least he got the care he needed and deserved in the end.

I still miss him and his weird unhelpful advice. I hope he rests in peace.

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[–] brb@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 year ago (10 children)

How do you overdraw? Shouldn't the payment just not go through if you don't have enough money?

[–] Stamets@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Oh you'd think. I honestly don't understand what the criteria for it is. It just seems completely fucking arbitrary.

The worst thing is when you try to buy something online and don't have enough so your bank charges you an NSF (Non-Sufficient Funds) fee. Literally charging you money for not having enough money. That brings me down into the negative and suddenly I'm overdraft so what do they do? Charge me a fucking overdraft fee.

Fuck you Tangerine. A total of $80 in charges. Why? Because I only had $33.65 in the bank and the PS4 game I was trying to buy was $33.85. I messed up the math and thought I had enough. But yeah. I couldn't afford a $34 game so surely I can afford $80. Pricks.

[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

And it’s also a “feature” when a bank is like “hey bro, I know you don’t have enough money to cover all these checks/charges that just came through, so I’ll cash the biggest first, then charge $35/each fir all the others even if they were first”

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[–] FarFarAway@startrek.website 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I've actually tried to have the bank, on multiple occasions, cut me off when my balance hit zero.

They refused. But I can link it to my savings so they can charge me $5 to transfer $100 from my savings to prevent the $35 overdraft fee. No, they won't alert you when they are transferring it. Yes, they will keep perform multiple transfers until you deposit more money / your savings runs out.

I know the banks need to make money, but aren't there any legitimate ways they could do so without screwing people over in the process.

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[–] Comfortably_Wet@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Funny fact: As an US citizen it is INCREDIBLE HARD to open a foreign banking account. My local German bank simply rejects ALL US customers except when they want to invest a million or more. Because the paper work is HORRIBLE. I on the other hand can easily open a banking account in Finland, Spain, Great Britain or Greece. With some limitations even in Canada, Japan and Mexiko. For an US citizen: End Boss Level. Some even have fantastic service and interest rates.

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[–] SuckMyWang@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Conservative thinking: You should have complied with the bank then there wouldn’t be a problem

[–] Mr_Buscemi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

During college I had a local bank account mainly used just to buy stuff I needed during those two years I lived in a small ass college town.

Right before graduating my account was low since I wasn't adding more cash to that bank. A subscription I thought I canceled ended up charging me $35 more than I had in my bank account. The bank workers told me on the phone not to worry about it since I have overdraft protection and I can just cancel the purchase later with no charge.

They lied and I ended up getting charged an extra $35 for going over my balance. Still fucking hate that bank for making me deal with this during finals. Once the subscription was cancelled I still was in the negative because of the overdraft charges I was told wouldn't be used on me.

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