this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2025
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[–] Technoworcester@lemm.ee 47 points 4 hours ago (2 children)

'is weirder than you thought '

I am as likely to click a link with that line as much as if it had

'this one weird trick' or 'side hussle'.

I would really like it if headlines treated us like adults and got rid of click baity lines.

[–] BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 3 points 2 hours ago

But then you wouldn't need to click on thir Ad infested shite website where 1-2 paragraphs worth of actual information is stretched into a giant essay so that they can show you more Ads the longer you scroll

[–] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 6 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

They do it because it works on the whole. If straight titles were as effective they'd be used instead.

[–] tonywu@lemmy.world 2 points 2 hours ago

It really is quite unfortunate, I wish titles do what titles are supposed to do instead of being baits.but you are right, even consciously trying to avoid clicking sometimes curiosity gets the best of me. But I am improving.

[–] SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 hours ago

The one weird trick that makes clickbait work

[–] cholesterol@lemmy.world 10 points 3 hours ago

you can't trust its explanations as to what it has just done.

I might have had a lucky guess, but this was basically my assumption. You can't ask LLMs how they work and get an answer coming from an internal understanding of themselves, because they have no 'internal' experience.

Unless you make a scanner like the one in the study, non-verbal processing is as much of a black box to their 'output voice' as it is to us.

[–] dkc@lemmy.world 22 points 5 hours ago

The research paper looks well written but I couldn’t find any information on if this paper is going to be published in a reputable journal and peer reviewed. I have little faith in private businesses who profit from AI providing an unbiased view of how AI works. I think the first question I’d like answered is did Anthropic’s marketing department review the paper and did they offer any corrections or feedback? We’ve all heard the stories about the tobacco industry paying for papers to be written about the benefits of smoking and refuting health concerns.

[–] shaggyb@lemmy.world 2 points 3 hours ago

Don't tell me that my thoughts aren't weird enough.

[–] perestroika@lemm.ee 4 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Wow, interesting. :)

Not unexpectedly, the LLM failed to explain its own thought process correctly.

[–] El_Azulito@lemmy.world 3 points 9 hours ago

…Duh. 🤓

[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 61 points 20 hours ago (3 children)

"Ask Claude to add 36 and 59 and the model will go through a series of odd steps, including first adding a selection of approximate values (add 40ish and 60ish, add 57ish and 36ish). Towards the end of its process, it comes up with the value 92ish. Meanwhile, another sequence of steps focuses on the last digits, 6 and 9, and determines that the answer must end in a 5. Putting that together with 92ish gives the correct answer of 95," the MIT article explains."

That is precisrly how I do math. Feel a little targeted that they called this odd.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 0 points 13 minutes ago* (last edited 13 minutes ago) (1 children)

But you're doing two calculations now, an approximate one and another one on the last digits, since you're going to do the approximate calculation you might act as well just do the accurate calculation and be done in one step.

This solution, while it works, has the feeling of evolution. No intelligent design, which I suppose makes sense considering the AI did essentially evolve.

[–] Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 minutes ago

Appreciate the advice on how my brain should work.

[–] JayGray91@lemmy.zip 19 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

I think it's odd in the sense that it's supposed to be software so it should already know what 36 plus 59 is in a picosecond, instead of doing mental arithmetics like we do

At least that's my takeaway

[–] shawn1122@lemm.ee 4 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

This is what the ARC-AGI test by Chollet has also revealed of current AI / LLMs. They have a tendency to approach problems with this trial and error method and can be extremely inefficient (in their current form) with anything involving abstract / deductive reasoning.

Most LLMs do terribly at the test with the most recent breakthrough being with reasoning models. But even the reasoning models struggle.

ARC-AGI is simple, but it demands a keen sense of perception and, in some sense, judgment. It consists of a series of incomplete grids that the test-taker must color in based on the rules they deduce from a few examples; one might, for instance, see a sequence of images and observe that a blue tile is always surrounded by orange tiles, then complete the next picture accordingly. It’s not so different from paint by numbers.

The test has long seemed intractable to major AI companies. GPT-4, which OpenAI boasted in 2023 had “advanced reasoning capabilities,” didn’t do much better than the zero percent earned by its predecessor. A year later, GPT-4o, which the start-up marketed as displaying “text, reasoning, and coding intelligence,” achieved only 5 percent. Gemini 1.5 and Claude 3.7, flagship models from Google and Anthropic, achieved 5 and 14 percent, respectively.

https://archive.is/7PL2a

[–] Kolanaki@pawb.social 28 points 12 hours ago (6 children)

I use a calculator. Which an AI should also be and not need to do weird shit to do math.

[–] Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 11 points 12 hours ago

Function calling is a thing chatbots can do now

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[–] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 7 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

Another very surprising outcome of the research is the discovery that these LLMs do not, as is widely assumed, operate by merely predicting the next word. By tracing how Claude generated rhyming couplets, Anthropic found that it chose the rhyming word at the end of verses first, then filled in the rest of the line.

If the llm already knows the full sentence it's going to output from the first word it "guesses" I wonder if you could short circuit it and say just give the full sentence instead of doing a cycle for each word of the sentence, could maybe cut down on llm energy costs.

[–] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago)

interestingly, too, this is a technique when you're improvising songs, it's called Target Rhyming.

The most effective way is to do A / B^1 / C / B^2 rhymes. You pick the B^2 rhyme, let's say, "ibruprofen" and you get all of A and B^1 to think of a rhyme

Oh its Christmas time
And I was up on my roof when
I heard a jolly old voice
Ask me for ibuprofen

And the audience thinks you're fucking incredible for complex rhymes.

[–] angrystego@lemmy.world 1 points 4 hours ago

I don't think it knows the full sentence, it just doesn't search for the words in the order they will be in the sentence. It finds the end-words first to make the poem rhyme, than looks for the rest of the words. I do it this way as well just like many other people trying to create any kind of rhyming text.

[–] harryprayiv@infosec.pub 149 points 1 day ago (11 children)

To understand what's actually happening, Anthropic's researchers developed a new technique, called circuit tracing, to track the decision-making processes inside a large language model step-by-step. They then applied it to their own Claude 3.5 Haiku LLM.

Anthropic says its approach was inspired by the brain scanning techniques used in neuroscience and can identify components of the model that are active at different times. In other words, it's a little like a brain scanner spotting which parts of the brain are firing during a cognitive process.

This is why LLMs are so patchy at math. (Image credit: Anthropic)

Anthropic made lots of intriguing discoveries using this approach, not least of which is why LLMs are so terrible at basic mathematics. "Ask Claude to add 36 and 59 and the model will go through a series of odd steps, including first adding a selection of approximate values (add 40ish and 60ish, add 57ish and 36ish). Towards the end of its process, it comes up with the value 92ish. Meanwhile, another sequence of steps focuses on the last digits, 6 and 9, and determines that the answer must end in a 5. Putting that together with 92ish gives the correct answer of 95," the MIT article explains.

But here's the really funky bit. If you ask Claude how it got the correct answer of 95, it will apparently tell you, "I added the ones (6+9=15), carried the 1, then added the 10s (3+5+1=9), resulting in 95." But that actually only reflects common answers in its training data as to how the sum might be completed, as opposed to what it actually did.

In other words, not only does the model use a very, very odd method to do the maths, you can't trust its explanations as to what it has just done. That's significant and shows that model outputs can not be relied upon when designing guardrails for AI. Their internal workings need to be understood, too.

Another very surprising outcome of the research is the discovery that these LLMs do not, as is widely assumed, operate by merely predicting the next word. By tracing how Claude generated rhyming couplets, Anthropic found that it chose the rhyming word at the end of verses first, then filled in the rest of the line.

"The planning thing in poems blew me away," says Batson. "Instead of at the very last minute trying to make the rhyme make sense, it knows where it’s going."

Anthropic discovered that their Claude LLM didn't just predict the next word. (Image credit: Anthropic)

Anthropic also found, among other things, that Claude "sometimes thinks in a conceptual space that is shared between languages, suggesting it has a kind of universal 'language of thought'."

Anywho, there's apparently a long way to go with this research. According to Anthropic, "it currently takes a few hours of human effort to understand the circuits we see, even on prompts with only tens of words." And the research doesn't explain how the structures inside LLMs are formed in the first place.

But it has shone a light on at least some parts of how these oddly mysterious AI beings—which we have created but don't understand—actually work. And that has to be a good thing.

[–] hikaru755@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago

"The planning thing in poems blew me away," says Batson. "Instead of at the very last minute trying to make the rhyme make sense, it knows where it’s going."

How is this surprising, like, at all? LLMs predict only a single token at a time for their output, but to get the best results, of course it makes absolute sense to internally think ahead, come up with the full sentence you're gonna say, and then just output the next token necessary to continue that sentence. It's going to re-do that process for every single token which wastes a lot of energy, but for the quality of the results this is the best approach you can take, and that's something I felt was kinda obvious these models must be doing on one level or another.

I'd be interested to see if there are massive potentials for efficiency improvements by making the model able to access and reuse the "thinking" they have already done for previous tokens

[–] msage@programming.dev 3 points 9 hours ago

My favourite part of the day: commenting LLMentalist under AI articles.

[–] MudMan@fedia.io 69 points 23 hours ago (24 children)

Is that a weird method of doing math?

I mean, if you give me something borderline nontrivial like, say 72 times 13, I will definitely do some similar stuff. "Well it's more than 700 for sure, but it looks like less than a thousand. Three times seven is 21, so two hundred and ten, so it's probably in the 900s. Two times 13 is 26, so if you add that to the 910 it's probably 936, but I should check that in a calculator."

Do you guys not do that? Is that a me thing?

[–] kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

But you wouldn't multiply, say, 74*14 to get the answer.

[–] Manticore@lemmy.nz 1 points 48 minutes ago* (last edited 48 minutes ago)

I might. Then I can subtract 74 to get 74*14, and subtract 28 to get 72*13.

I don't generally do that to 'weird' numbers, I usually get closer to multiples of 5, 9, 10, or 11.

But a computer stores information differently. Perhaps it moves closer to numbers with simpler binary addresses.

[–] Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

How I'd do it is basically

72 * (10+3)

(72 * 10) + (72 * 3)

(720) + (3*(70+2))

(720) + (210+6)

(720) + (216)

936

Basically I break the numbers apart into easier chunks and then add them together.

[–] Manticore@lemmy.nz 1 points 45 minutes ago

This is what I do, except I would add 700 and 236 at the end.

Well except I would probably add 700 and 116 or something, because my working memory fucking sucks and my brain drops digits very easily when there's more than 1

[–] Mac@mander.xyz 2 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

I wouldn't even attempt that in my head.
I can't keep track of things and then recall them later for the final result.

[–] HereIAm@lemmy.world 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Pen and paper maths I'm pretty decent at, but ask me to calculate anything in my head and it's anyone's guess if I remembered to carry the 1 or not. Ever since learning about aphantasia I'm wondering if the lack of being able to visually store values has something to do with it.

[–] futatorius@lemm.ee 4 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

Ever since learning about aphantasia I’m wondering if the lack of being able to visually store values has something to do with it.

Here's some anecdotal evidence. Until I was 12 or 13, I could do absurdly complex arithmetical calculations in my head. My memory of it was of visualizing intermediate calculations as if they were on a screen in my head. I'd close my eyes to minimize distracting external stimuli. I'd get pocket money because my dad would get his friends to bet on whether I could correctly multiply two 7-digit phone numbers, and when I won, which I always did, he'd give the money to me. He had an old-school electromechanical calculator he'd use to check the results.

Neither of my parents and none of my many siblings had this ability.

I was able to use a similar visualization technique to memorize long passages of music and text. That stayed with me post-puberty, though again at a lesser extent. I've also been able to learn languages more quickly than most.

Once puberty kicked in, my ability to visualize declined significantly, though to compensate, I learned some mental arithmetics tricks that I still use now. I was able to get an MS in mathematics without much effort, since that relied on higher-level reasoning and not all that much on powerful memory or visualization. I didn't pursue a Ph.D. due to lack of money but I think I could have gotten one (though I despise academic politics).

So I think your comment about aphantasia is at least directionally correct, at least as applied to people. But there's little reason to assume LLMs would do things the same way a human mind does, though both might operate under some similar information-theoretic constraints that would cause convergent evolution.

[–] reev@sh.itjust.works 44 points 21 hours ago (3 children)

I think what's wild about it is that it really is surprisingly similar to how we actually think. It's very different from how a computer (calculator) would calculate it.

So it's not a strange method for humans but that's what makes it so fascinating, no?

[–] PlexSheep@infosec.pub 2 points 5 hours ago

I mean neural networks are modeled after biological neurons/brains after all. Kind of makes sense...

[–] pulsewidth@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

Yes, agreed. And calculators are essentially tabulators, and operate almost just like a skilled person using an abacus.

We shouldn't really be surprised because we designed these machines and programs based on our own human experiences and prior solutions to problems. It's still neat though.

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