this post was submitted on 18 Mar 2025
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What is your line in the sand?

Edit: thank you all for your responses. I think it's important as an American we take your view points seriously. I think of a North Korean living inside of North Korea. They don't really know how bad it is because that is all hidden from them and they've never had anything else. As things get worse for Americans it's important to have your voices because we will become more and more isolated.

Even the guy who said, "lol." Some people need that sort of sobering reaction.

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[–] ruupski@lemmy.world 1 points 58 seconds ago
[–] randon31415@lemmy.world 2 points 8 minutes ago

People seem to think freedom and democracy are synonymous. Places can be free, but not have democracy; places can also have democracy and not be free. When a simple majority of the voting public supports cracking down on freedoms - you will have one of the two, but you can't have both.

[–] Belinea@toot.kif.rocks 1 points 23 minutes ago
[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 13 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

To me it never really was. If you look into how they do voting here, its insane, really.

US citizens always loved to make these "we'll bomb some democracy in to you" but they never brought democracy either. I think it's fair to say that no other country started asa y dictatorships as the US has

Add to that;

Bush lost the election and became president anyway.

Trump has heen successfully lying his way through the past four years (and well, yeah the 4 years before that too) instigated an insurrection and was never held accountable

[–] ripcord@lemmy.world 3 points 3 hours ago

So many people not reading the "people outside the US" part.

[–] ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world 7 points 4 hours ago

If a presidential candidate can lose an election and still become president, it's not a democracy.

[–] jaxxed@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

It is still a democracy, but that democracy is in crisis. You will know over the next 2/years if it will survive, although the next federal election will be the real test.

  • if the judicial and congress still share power,
  • if elections are still fair.

Democracies can recover if they keep their representation.

[–] meekah@lemmy.world 2 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (1 children)

Elections in the US aren't really all that fair TBH.

Researchers at the Brookings Institution agree that the strategic manipulation of our electoral process is largely to blame for the erosion of US democracy in recent years. Brookings says this manipulation takes various forms: the intentional addition of administrative barriers to voting, unfairly drawing electoral maps, the subversion of the election certification and counting process, and the violent coup attempt on January 6, 2021.

https://blog.ucs.org/liza-gordon-rogers/us-elections-arent-as-free-and-fair-as-they-should-be-heres-how-science-can-help/

The United States is experiencing two major forms of democratic erosion in its governing institutions:

  • Strategic manipulation of elections. Distinct from “voter fraud,” which is almost non-existent in the United States, election manipulation has become increasingly common and increasingly extreme. Examples include election procedures that make it harder to vote (like inadequate polling facilities) or that reduce the opposing party’s representation (like gerrymandering).
  • Executive aggrandizement. Even a legitimately elected leader can undermine democracy if they eliminate governmental “checks and balances” or consolidate power in unaccountable institutions. The United States has seen substantial expansions of executive power and serious efforts to erode the independence of the civil service. In addition, there are serious questions about the impartiality of the judiciary.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/understanding-democratic-decline-in-the-united-states/

[–] ButtermilkBiscuit@lemm.ee 3 points 4 hours ago

One thing that I think they may have missed in this analysis is erosion from the inside. Our supreme Court overturned or instituted a couple major rules that have allowed corporations to funnel billions of dollars directly to politicians with citizens united decision, then helped erode administrative functions of government by overturning Chevron deference. When you combine that shit with the way we allow corporate lobbying in the US, we're not even close to "democracy" in this shit hole. It's a corporate oligarchy masquerading as a republic/democracy. Corporations own this country, the government protects them, that bullshit you hear about the "land of the free" is about corporations not individuals.

[–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 1 points 3 hours ago

We are mostly a democracy but it's crumbling. Trump has ignored judges and stuff and causing a real shit fest. But for the most part, the people elected for this. Now if the people get their heads out of the asses and vote this guy out, but he's still president, then it's not a democracy.

[–] Ruigaard@slrpnk.net 7 points 6 hours ago

Speaking on the federal level (have less of a view on the local and state level). It was a very flawed democracy, and it's descending a less and less functioning system as we speak, moving towards some form of fascism/techno feudalism.

[–] OceanSoap@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Democracy is an umbrella term. These are the types of democracy the US is:

  1. Representative Democracy

  2. Constitutional Democracy

  3. Presidential Democracy

  4. Liberal Democracy

Types of Democracy the US is not:

  1. Direct Democracy

  2. Parliamentary Democracy

  3. Illiberal Democracy

  4. Participatory Democracy

  5. Social Democracy

So yes, it's a democracy.

[–] ThirdConsul@lemmy.ml 24 points 14 hours ago

I never considered it a democracy. It's one-party system with two parties, what can be democratic about it? Smoke and mirrors.

[–] TastyWheat@lemmy.world 22 points 15 hours ago

Nope, it's an oligarchy pretending it's a democracy.

[–] kaerypheur@lemmy.world 7 points 12 hours ago

For me, the US is still a democracy with elements of an authoritarian regime. Yes, I believe this can happen in any country, including mine, if the elected party or a wealthy figure decides to amend such authoritarian, manipulative, and exploitative policies.

[–] brrt@lemm.ee 7 points 13 hours ago
[–] skozzii@lemmy.ca 24 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

I barely considered it a democracy as a two party system as the elites controlled it all, but now it's just even more messed up. They need to hold people accountable and not elect criminals to office.

I fear for the future of America as a country.

[–] Aiala@lemmy.world 2 points 12 hours ago

In some aspects, but no more than china. (spaniard here)

[–] samus12345@lemm.ee 13 points 18 hours ago

I'm inside the US, and the federal government is most certainly no longer a democracy. It still has all the trappings, but corruption will ensure that the will of the people is secondary to whatever those in power want - even more than has been the case in the past. Locally, democracy is still practiced, in places like blue states.

[–] wolf@lemmy.zip 23 points 20 hours ago

When was the US the last time a democracy?

You can vote democrats or republicans, which mostly get bankrolled by the same rich assholes. As a normal citizen of the US you have almost no influence at politics at all, because the media is controlled by rich people, the biggest internet platforms are controlled by rich people, elections are paid for by rich people, ...

The current situation is not a spontaneous, miraculous, magical result of Trump and his gang, it was years in the making by lobby groups, influential/rich/powerful people and neo liberal brainwashing of the masses.

Same holds true for most other western so called democracies.

[–] Freshparsnip@lemm.ee 28 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Absolutely not. When laws don't apply to the president, the jig is up. Trump clearly plans to be in power forever. Either there won't be elections or they'll be rigged.

[–] arakhis_@feddit.org 7 points 20 hours ago

all those images of venezualen immigrants .... being handled like the absolute worst possible being.. its crazy

[–] Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 15 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (2 children)

Not since I saw this graph:

From this paper:

https://archive.org/details/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc/page/n7/mode/1up

This was published in 2014, back when Obama was in office.

The institutions are completely captured. Yes, even the ones you thought were on your side all this time.

[–] BombOmOm@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Average citizens banding together into interest groups is a pretty common way to get things passed, and this chart agrees.

[–] Excrubulent@slrpnk.net 3 points 5 hours ago

That is not what the paper means by "interest groups".

[–] Dayroom7485@lemmy.world 6 points 12 hours ago

I am a bit too dumb to understand that graph and asked ai for an explanation. It helped me, maybe it also helps others:

This graph comes from a study by Gilens and Page that examines how different groups influence U.S. policy decisions. It has three separate charts, each showing how policy adoption (whether a policy is enacted) relates to the preferences of different groups:

1. Average Citizens’ Preferences (top chart)

2. Economic Elites’ Preferences (middle chart)

3. Interest Group Alignments (bottom chart)

Breaking It Down:

• X-axis:

• In the first two graphs, it represents how much each group supports a policy (from 0% to 100%).

• In the third graph (Interest Groups), the x-axis shows alignment, with negative values meaning opposition and positive values meaning support.

• Y-axis:

• The left y-axis (dark line) shows the predicted probability of a policy being adopted.

• The right y-axis (gray bars) shows how often different levels of support occur in the data (percentage of cases).

Key Takeaways & Surprises:

1. The top chart (Average Citizens) is nearly a flat line.

• This means that whether the general public strongly supports or opposes a policy has little impact on whether it gets adopted.

2. The middle chart (Economic Elites) has a rising curve.

• This suggests that policies supported by the wealthy have a much higher chance of being adopted.

3. The bottom chart (Interest Groups) also shows a strong upward trend.

• The more interest groups align in favor of a policy, the more likely it is to be adopted.

Big Picture:

This graph suggests that the opinions of average citizens have little to no effect on policy decisions, while economic elites and interest groups have significant influence. This challenges the idea that the U.S. operates as a true democracy where the will of the majority decides policy.

[–] Teknikal@eviltoast.org 11 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

Nope Trump proved yet again the US is a Russian puppet today earlier in the week Ukraine destroyed a huge Russian Oil plant. Now a few days later Trump is giving them a Ceasefire against energy targets which Putin supposedly broke just a mere 3 hours later.

If anything this proves two things Ukraine really hurt them with that attack and Trump is again proving he's Putins lapdog and acting outright against Ukraine and Europe.

Actually saw some combat footage of that Ukraine attack and it looked almost like a nuke, from what I remember it's a 1000km ranged missile called Neptune.

[–] Ephera@lemmy.ml 3 points 15 hours ago

I guess, I'd say it's a democracy-in-progress currently. I mean, all democracies always are, but the US perhaps a bit more. Seeing the protests is a very good sign, though.

[–] spittingimage@lemmy.world 14 points 22 hours ago

Not for quite some time now. Not since I learned about the electoral college.

[–] gaael@lemm.ee 9 points 21 hours ago

I still believe there are democracies in America but the US of A aren't one of them.

[–] JoeKrogan@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

No and it hasn't been for a long time. As long as you can buy influence via lobbying then the playing field is not level.

The difference this time is they are not trying to hide it anymore

[–] TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world 32 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Canadian here.

Before Trump? Ehhh, not really. I've always viewed the US as a place where you vote for which oligarch-backed monarch you'd want to put in absolute power for 4 years. Every 4/8 years the new incoming overlord just rips up whatever the previous one did and nothing of substance is actually achieved.

After Trump 2.0? No. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Trump is going to surrender all that power he and the GOP have accumulated. And why would he? He doesn't have to. He literally controls every branch of government that he can and ignores those that he doesn't. If the US ever has another election it will purely be for show, like China's elections. The mask is now fully off and the charade of US democracy is over as those who actually wield the power now do so openly on their sleeves.

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[–] JacksonLamb@lemmy.world 87 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

still consider

It has only two political parties, and a weird system where all votes are not equal and the actual vote majority doesn't always win.

It has frequently had multiple people from the same families running for office, and only wealthy people have a shot. Corporations get to lobby for laws in their favour.

It also spies on its own citizens, holds people indefinitely without trial, has a huge prison population, a militarized police with a high homicide rate, and is the only western nation with the death penalty.

Trump and Musk are laying bare how fragile the veneer of "democracy" really is in that country.

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[–] cdnwaffleiron@lemmy.ca 5 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)
[–] dadjokesfordays@lemmy.ca 4 points 20 hours ago

Nope. I see it as an autocracy run by an elite oligarchy.

[–] FelixCress@lemmy.world 153 points 1 day ago (5 children)

No. And I haven't for a while now. Looking at your electoral system (electoral college, gerrymandering etc.), it probably never was but it was never as obvious as it is now.

[–] jimmy90@lemmy.world 1 points 12 hours ago

also the media influence on elections is out of control

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[–] 58008@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

On paper, I guess so? In reality, and as is the case with pretty much every developed democracy, money and technology make a mockery of the whole idea. A society in which billionaires can buy their way into the Whitehouse - literally - is no democracy.

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[–] DasFaultier@sh.itjust.works 122 points 1 day ago (1 children)

See, as a German, when I see a country go down the same route as the Weimar Republic after handing over the power to the Nazi party, I think it's just very obvious. Hitler took some two months to completely destroy democracy, and the US are juuust in the middle of that. History doesn't repeat, but sometimes it rhymes, and the similarities are just remarkable.

So yeah, I guess that would be a big fat trench in the sand.

[–] unlogic@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 day ago

As a German also I agree with this statement. Ostensibly it is a democracy but in reality it's not. And yes, there is a lot of rhyming going on

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