Men's Liberation

A large percentage of women actively prefer many of the behaviors we're describing as "toxic". The majority of my casual partners have explicitly requested, or discussed how attractive they find, borderline abusive behavior: physical aggression, jealousy, catcalling and infantalizing language, relentless pursuit, etc. My first girlfriend told me to be less respectful with her, and lost a lot of attraction toward me the first time I was emotionally vulnerable with her.

So a big problem is that while a vocal portion of women are telling men that certain gender norms are toxic and they need to stop, they're watching the women they're pursuing choose the men who exhibit this toxic behavior. At the end of the day, without any guidance from feminists, they have to choose between what the feminists tell them, and what the pick-up artist types tell them. The pick-up artists promise them romantic success, the feminists call them toxic for feeling entitled to romantic success.

With sexual/romantic success being the primary motivator for young men, is it really a surprise that they make the choices they make?

Ultimately, relationships often depend on it. Many men in my life are fine and comfortable when I express vulnerability or weakness. Though when I do in relationships, it often goes sideways. Decision making, certainty and very positively received. Alongside that, recent relationships respond positively as they prefer a submissive role.

The woman in my life have generally maintained this type of role.

For further clarification, physical violence hasn't been required or welcome in adult life. Barely seen a usage since school.

People, on the whole, tend to be pragmatic.

Shelter, security, sex, and food... These are the core requirements for existence.

If someone sees a better outcome in terms of core requirements from new behavior they are more likely to try that behavior. Demonstrate the better way to be, and people will follow.

This gets back to Foucault’s internalized panopticon, although I don’t recall Foucault ever extrapolating the idea to gender norms. Yes, it’s external pressure but it becomes internalized

By refusing to take part in the hierarchy of dominance you will eventually be subject to a more general and, frankly, human set of standards.

You mention some examples, like defending your partner from a mugger, calling out your boss when treated unfairly, paying for meals, etc.
Let's say a man stopped doing those things, what do you think the immediate and short term consequences would be?

I feel like external pressure is only half the problem. It is important but IMO the role model is also a problem. Non toxic masculinity is often describe in the negative of the toxic masculinity : you're good when you are not toxic, not when you are something positive.

In some way it is less restrictive, but in other way it is missing the model.

The other side of this coin is the corruption of the ideal that lead to nihilism. Toxic masculinity corrupts ideals. Violence is strength. Protecting is necessarily the destruction of the threat. Independence is power. Smart is manipulation and deception. Everything is to be seen through a lens of domination and power. And that is the core of the problem.

Instead, a model is to be seen with any quality, but through another lens. Strength can help the weak. Smart can disarm an explosive situation. Power is to be shared and used wisely. Basically, a model opposite to the toxic masculinity can be many things with all the qualities of the virility, but the difference is that they will be used and targeted differently. And for many people, it is to be learnt through a model.

This is a core problem because for many people, if you tell them to drop the toxic behaviour, there will be nothing left to aim for, nothing for them to transform into.

And this goes back to the social validation you're talking about. Going from toxic to positive requires a transformation so that the qualities someone has can be positive instead of negative, but as qualities they can still be praised and admired.

Do men feel like "they can't abandon masculinity"? Is that a widespread feeling men have?

I don't see it much. What I see the most is men that don't want to abandon masculinity.

Why tf would you associate with men who would punish you if you don't "live up to a masculine ideal"? You're not out of the "masculinity rat race" if you don't do something that some people see as not manly.

If you're a man, you get to define what masculinity is and means. If that means monster trucks and guns, cool. If that means baking cookies and taking care of a baby, cool. You're a man so by default everything you do is manly.

I think these types of conversations are important for men and women alike. I’m a straight white man who is comfortable sharing his emotions with my partner, friends, and co workers. I have a bad habit of putting others and their needs before myself but I also make sure I take care of/pamper myself. When someone challenges me, especially to physical confrontation or some other potentially dangerous behavior, I can easily decline and look “weak”, I’ve never been in a fist fight in my life and I’m happy about that. In my mind and the way I was raised (in WV of all places) these are strong masculine traits: be open and honest with people around you, take care of others and yourself, and don’t do anything overly dangerous just to look tough or more important than you are.

The thing is, all of these a strong qualities that I want in the people I associate with, men and women. There are toxic behaviors on every part of the gender spectrum, the trick is recognizing them, not playing into them yourself, and helping family and friends through open dialogues not meant to shame or embarrass but real conversation.

My post is kind of rambling and I apologize for that but I wanted to put this out there because I saw a few comments about how some women and certain behaviors, like protecting a loved one from a mugger, can perpetuate toxicity. And to that I say, if there are people like that in your orbit, you either need to cut them out or if you love them and want them around, you need to have a conversation with them about their toxic behavior.