this post was submitted on 31 Jul 2024
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Yeah, what the fuck is it with glorifying USSR in those posts? Five year plan my fucking ass, the whole eastern block was a shithole with no human rights, no liberty and borderline poverty. The progress it made for humanity was negative and we all would be better if lenin and stalin died at birth. Nothing good ever came out of russia and even their socialist revolution turned into oppressing everyone who isn’t at the top very quick.
If you want to advertise socialism maybe don’t point to the worst implementation of it.
The 5 year plans were part of what made it so bad, too.
I'm not saying completely free markets are the solution, but a totally planned economy is set to fail because it's impossible to plan for everything.
What do you mean? Can you provide an example, and how Capitalism can better account for it?
Unregulated capitalism isn't any better, but for an example, there was mass starvation in the USSR doing some 5 year plans.
Ultimately you can't account for every factor - humans, weather, etc. Markets are more efficient than planning in some aspects, but you can't allow rent seeking capitalists to exploit everyone either. Nationalize everything truly important and what's allowed to exist as private enterprise, should be heavily regulated.
Famine was regular in Tsarist Russia, once farming was collectivized and industrialized famine ended.
None of that is specific, all of that is vibes.
Hey now, if the people over at lemmy.ml could read they'd be very upset!
Lenin was the first person to kickstart the first functional socialist society; regardless of how you look at his policies, he is an obvious choice and an important man in history.
Also, Lenin did not commit genocide.
Lenin was the man who presided over the suppression and destruction of existing worker power and socialist modes of production.
All he did was create a centralised state capitalism and perpetuated existing class conflict, with his party taking the role of the bourgeoisie.
Lenin was the man who presided over the creation and support of new worker power and socialist modes of production.
What separates any form of Marxism from "state capitalism," in your eyes? Marx was an advocate for central planning.
Secondly, please describe how the CPSU competed against each other in Markets for the purpose of Capital accumulation into their own pockets, and explain why wealth disparity greatly decreased during the USSR and increased after it's dissolution.
The USSR had numerous struggles and issues, both external and internal, but it was Socialist. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
Marx was also an advocate of worker ownership of the MoP, not state ownership.
The state owning and using force to control the MoP just recreates capitalist class dynamics.
I am not a fan of central planning personally, but you can have a centrally planned economy that is not state capitalist, as long as the planning committees are actually made up of workers and delegates chosen by the workers.
Immediately after the revolution, the existing workers and factory councils were either destroyed or coopted by the party.
I have honestly no idea what strawman you are trying to beat up here.
I never said anything about internal competition, I was talking about state capitalism as a system that perpetuates capitalist class structure with the state and agents of the state replacing the bourgeoisie.
Marx's State specifically referred to the elements of government that enforce class dynamics, like Private Property Rights. Marx was fully in favor of government, just not the State.
In what manner? If you eliminate market competition, Capital accumulation, and the necessity for profit, then you have fundamentally moved beyond Capitalism. The CPSU did not compete against each other and pocket vast amounts of profits, and the Soviets were run democratically. It's fundamentally and entirely different.
So then the USSR was Socialist, after all. The Soviet Union was based on Soviet Democracy, worker councils with elected delegates. There was corruption, and there were inner-power conflicts, but the structure overall was Socialist.
The Soviets never went away.
There's no strawman here, you claimed that the agents of the state functioned as the bourgeoisie, and I asked how they replicated the functions of the bourgeoise, the necessary components of which include competition and production for individual profit. The lack of those means it cannot be considered Capitalist.
I suggest reading Critique of the Gotha Programme, it might help you get a clearer understanding of the transition to Communism in Marx's own words.
Additionally, I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
You're shadowboxxing again, I never mentioned the state/government distinction.
Completely pointless either way since the USSR was not state abolitionist.
Because competition isn't what creates class disparity, the problem is the ownership and control part, which was entirely reserved for members of the party.
Because the party, which was controlled from the top down had complete economic and political control over the system, it essentially just replaced the ruling class of old.
Yes, the competition was mostly removed but the class structure stayed basically the same.
But there was no worker control of these institutions, they were entirely controlled from the top down by party officials.
If there were elections they were a sham, basically nothing else than virtue signaling to the values the communist party supposedly had but in practice despised.
I don't need to reply to this for the 759th time.
MLs flipping a coin on if they should tell someone to read Critique of the Gotha Programme or On Authority today.
What structural aspects of the USSR differed from what Marx advocated for?
Incorrect. Competition is key to accmulation and production for profit along Capitalist lines. Ownership was done via government, yes, and was participated in by the public. The Party was the group that largely ran the government, but you could join it if you wished.
There were elections. I would like justification for your claim that they were a sham.
Marxists suggest reading Marx and Engels, shocker.
You can't get off the dialogue tree man.
No, Lenin was not a genocidal dictator. Additionally, whether you agree with his contributions to Marxism or not, he remains the most influential Marxist of the 20th century, every major Marxist org since Lenin has been influenced by his analysis of Imperialism, the State, and Revolution, whether it be via accepting them, or deliberately rejecting them.
You could dispute the genocidal bit but you cannot in good faith argue that the communist party wasn't dictatorial.
And I believe the OPs point is that that's a bad thing.
We shouldn't be basing our politics and imagery today off the guy who fucked socialism for a century.
He wasn't, but the fact that his system was so easily taken over by someone who was should be reason enough to distrust ML.
Whom did he genocide according to you? And I guess you're against the worker-councils that made an incredible amount of the decisions in the RSFSR and the early USSR?
Even Paul Averich, an anarchist who wrote the definitive history of the 1921 Kronstadt uprising and critic of the Bolsheviks, didn't call Lenin genocidal. Ever heard about the White terror? After the civil war Lenin was sick and by Feb 1924 he would be dead, but go ahead and keep believing in myths. Calling Lenin a genocidal dictator, and hand wringing about the red terror after the Russia fought off civil war and invasions for years after the October revolution, is akin to taking the side of the confederates after the American civil war. Complete ignorance of history, complete acceptance of bourgeois myth.
I'm not uncritical of the USSR or the Bolsheviks and I'm a little skeptical of campists who are; but at least they have usually read reliable history books on the topic and come to a conclusion based on some factual information. You are not dealing with the historical context in which these tragedies occurred.
And the anarchist arrests and killings were happening right after the revolution, and everything that happened with the Black Army of Ukraine also happened well before then.
You talk as if there was only the White Army and then the Red Army standing up to the White Army, but there were plenty of other socialists that Lenin put his imperial boot on.
To be clear, I have a lot of sympathy for the anarchist perspective. Nestor Makhno was a total badass, and I can understand taking his side.
However, calling Lenin a genocidal imperialist dictator is just plain wrong. Rather than criticize the ghost of the bourgeois myth, I challenge you to criticize what he actually was, what he and the Bolsheviks were up against and reckon with the fact that what they were trying to accomplish was impossible. The rule of the Bolsheviks was orders of magnitude less bloody and tragic than the rule of tsar Nicholas was, and would have been had it been allowed to persist. And the Bolsheviks were the only faction in Russia capable of seizing and holding power at the time of the Revolution. If it wasn't for the Bolsheviks, Makhno would have rotted away in prison and Ukraine would have been crushed even more harshly by the actual imperialists, the Austro-Germans. Bolshevik suppression of anarchists was undoubtedly mishandled, repressive, terrible. I can understand hating the man that led the faction that carried out this repression, but that still does not make him what he was not.
Honestly I think the man you should direct your ire toward, the man who vowed to cleanse Russia of anarchism "with an iron broom," is the leader of the Red army, Leon Trotsky. And while I'm a fan of much of Trotsky's writing and his leadership during the 1917 struggle, his treatment of anarchists that followed was despicable. So again, historical context actually matters.
To be clear, I never used the "genocidal" label, but imperialist dictator does apply. You yourself say he led "the faction" that carried out "repression", admit it was "terrible", but then in the next breath you act like he had no responsibility.
You also say:
That's like saying, "if it wasn't for the people who wanted to kill him and put him in prison, he would be in prison"; followed by:
"More" and "actual" don't really fit here. In the same breath, you admit they were imperialists, but then essentially argue they are not true imperialists because it could have been worse.
Your entire comment is essentially trying to take everything that was bad about the party and their rule and separate it away from Lenin - the leader of the party that was ruling - and act like it was all done by a separate faction existing in a different reality; specifically you try to pin it all on Trotsky, who Lenin wished to appoint as Vice-chairman, and who historians believe Lenin wanted as a successor.
Trotsky didn't become Lenin's successor! This was how much control Lenin had actually lost over those years. Stalin was appointing his own people to positions within the government, Lenin and Trotsky knew this. Stalin was even rewriting history to portray him as a hero of the revolution, which he had very little to do with, and even tried to stall. Lenin and Trotsky knew this, they knew he was setting himself up to take power, against Lenin's supposed wishes. The fact is, the party was in many ways independent of Lenin. He led it but he led it as an intellectual, not a dictator. Even Stalin had limited control over the party, the scariest thing about the Stalinist purges is how much democratic buy in there was for them. but that's not how we are supposed to think of history. History is actually good guys vs bad guys, with "great men" fully in control of all of these conditions. Which makes us, like you and me, completely inconsequential, just like the capitalist ruling class wants us to believe. Your understanding is so fundamentally flawed you contradict yourself. Your point actually disproves your own premise, which makes me believe that you want a narrative, when you should be seeking truth: messy, incomplete, deeply contradictory truth. "Imperialism" has an actual meaning, stop trying to change it to fit your narrative, it cheapens the word.
Admittedly, I only read the first couple of sentences, but that's because, intentionally or not, you're still avoiding and deflecting from my main point.
You admitted Trotsky was a bastard. You now basically admitted that Lenin supported Trotsky and wanted to be succeeded by him. But you refuse to admit that Lenin was a bastard and seem to want to paint him as some sort of martyr or misunderstood saint.
Do you do that same for people who support Netanyahu? After all, it's not them who are responsible for the horrible things done to Palestinians, it's Netanyahu! They just happen to support him.
Is it that hard to just say, "Lenin was a bastard"?
I think you're polemically correct to say that the flaw in my argument is that I attribute too little influence to Lenin over the Bolsheviks. However I stand by all of the points that I've made, and without having read the same books as each other, comparing notes and passages, etc., which I might be persuaded to do in good faith, I think we've exhausted our differences on this topic.
To be clear if I was alive in that place at that time, I probably would have been a victim of either violent repression of anarchists (I don't identify as one but I might have at that time, like I said I'm deeply sympathetic to them,) and if not I would have definitely been purged by the late 1930s at the height of the Stalinist purges. But where I am now and from the history I've studied diligently for years, the discussions I've had, and the realities of organizing that I've done, I'm afraid I can't see Lenin the way you do, and in fact I remain critical of your views on him. So yes it is hard to say, because I won't lie to myself. At one time I saw Lenin and the Bolsheviks as you seem to think I see them: untainted by avoidable tragedy and justified in all their transgressions. But i've grown since then, as I hope to continue to grow; and I hope your perspective expands as well.
Your black and white false equivocation completely divorced from historical context is the bullshit. At what point have you demonstrated even an elementary knowledge of the circumstances? You can't just throw out words like Cheka and Black Army as a substitute for historical understanding. Make an actual point based in historic facts. I'm not here to entertain your ignorance, I'm here to provide nuance and context to the bourgeois myths you are determined to repeat. Unlike many communists I am actually critical of the Bolsheviks; but that doesn't make me a willing stooge for disinformation. I've studied, I've discussed, I've made up my own mind about these things. I'm not wrong for asking a bit more from you than blind disdain, in fact I wish you would ask more from yourself.
I've very much heard of the red terror, i.e. the internal response of the Bolsheviks in the RSFSR to the civil war against Tsarism and their allies. It was very restrained in numbers (nothing like the Stalinist terror), can be very well compared to the oppression within republican Spain in the Spanish civil war against fascism, both in scope and in numbers. I wonder why people never criticise the latter... Oh right, because they lost against fascists, and the only acceptable leftist movements in the west, are those that fail, like Spanish Second Republic, Mosaddegh, Salvador Allende...
What you anticommunists can't stand isn't the red terror, but the fact that for once, the leftists used the means they needed to use in order to secure a victory against fascism
Wait, you're telling me that the people from the 20th century who were on the receiving end of Tsarist oppression, when they got power and saw Tsarism rear its head in a civil war, were at times cruel against Tsarists? Wow, who would have thunk. Very easy recipe for not being tortured by the Cheka for being a fascist: don't be a fascist.
In places where leftists didn't oppress the fascists, like Chile under Salvador Allende or Spain during the Spanish Second Republic, the fascists gained control and then did tenfold the torture and murder, not just to their ideological enemies but to entire ethnicities. You don't fight fascism with flowers and votes, I hope once and for all people will understand this.
This dudes pro Tsar lol
Are you thinking of Stalin?
Was Stalin the ~~dictator~~ elected leader at the time of the betrayal and destruction of the Black Army of Ukraine? Was Stalin the one in power right after the revolution when they started killing and arresting anarchists?
Fuck Lenin.
Trotsky was in charge of the red army wrt the suppression of the Makhnovists, so your ire directed at Lenin is misplaced. Even the idea that Lenin had total dictatorial control is a slanderous myth. He was a sheer intellectual force of history, committed to revolution. The Bolsheviks were flawed and contained many bellicose elements such as Stalin; and Lenin was content if not often forced to leave many matters in the hands of Trotsky, Kamanev, Zinoviev and others. If anything, Lenin didn't have enough control over the Bolsheviks
I already said this in reply to your other comment, but I'll repeat it here.
Lenin appointed Trotsky as Vice-chairman, and it's believed Lenin wanted Trotsky as his successor; you can't just shift all blame from one to another and pretend Lenin lived in a different reality when he was leader of the party.
And I'll repeat my point here as well, Trotsky didn't become General Secretary, which disproves the idea that Lenin was an absolute dictator