this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
510 points (87.3% liked)
Asklemmy
43863 readers
1700 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
Search asklemmy π
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
People overlook vegetarianism and semi-vegetarian lifestyles as an option too much and it is not helpful that real life examples of vegetarian cultures, get co-opted by Vegans purists as "Vegan cultures" in easily disproven claims- thus hurting the whole movement
I've had debates with vegans on something similar:
I'm not vegan, I'll never be vegan. That's a complete non-starter for me.
What I have done is reduce my meat intake from 2/sometimes 3 meals a day to 1 meal per day - occasionally (less than once per month) two. Once Lab-grown meat is a viable alternative on cost/taste/texture, I'll be all over that. I still won't be vegan. Even if I reach a point where no animals are harmed from my diet.
I believe it is far easier to convince 1 Million people to do this than it would be to convert 100,000 people to full veganism. A Million people doing this would save Billions more animals per year than 100,000 vegan conversions and maybe even in itself convert a few of those people to full veganism along the way.
They're never interested. It's all or nothing. Black or white. Vegan or Animal killer. They usually have issues with lab grown meat, as well.
It's as though they're a member of an elite club and membership is more important than actually saving animals.
I mean, most vegans would still commend your effort to reduce animal product consumption.
But from a moral standpoint, simply eating less animal products really doesn't have much value. Imagine using your argument for other moral dilemmas.
"Racism is wrong, so I reduced the amount of racial slurs I use to only 1/3"
"Rape is wrong, so I only rape on Mondays now" (in reference to meatless Mondays)
I hate to be so militant about it, but you either think animal abuse is acceptable or you don't.
Now, what I do think could be a moral standpoint, if you really want to still be able to eat meat, is to only eat "humane" meat. I put "humane" in quotes because even farmers with the best intentions are still killing animals young. I don't personally believe any animal product can be humane, but even then I can recognize that any animal that was raised on a pasture and ate real food is more ethical to eat than one in a factory.
So if you genuinely only ate pasture raised beef and chicken (and you were sure about it), then I would say that is quite honorable.
Ahh yeah about that: My reasons are not what you're calling "moral". We are naturally omnivores. We've been omnivorous since before we came down from the trees. Probably since before we left the water. I don't have a problem eating meat. I think a vegan diet is unnatural for us, though I have no issues with anyone who chooses that lifestyle.
My reasons are from a sustainability/environmental position. Our present consumption levels already put a strain on the planet, and we sure couldnβt sustain it if everyone on the planet ate meat three meaty meals a day. This is another reason Iβm all about that lab grown meat.
Okay but there's a moral hierarchy when it comes to eating meat. Humans used to hunt, meaning we would kill animals that lived natural lives. Not to mention, we would typically target animals that were older or sickly, because we would have a harder time killing animals that are in their prime.
That's so much different from modern day agriculture practices. We raise animals in fences so tight they can't turn their heads, and feed them nasty stuff. We abuse the shit out of them until they reach the point where we deem them the most profitable then we kill them. There's nothing natural about that.
Also, it's really hard to know for sure, but we have a good amount of evidence that humans didn't eat that much meat. First of all, the animals we hunted wouldn't be nearly as fat as the animals we eat today. Secondly, there's evidence that many humans ate roughly 100g of fiber per day, which is not possible if you had any serious amount of meat. Humans ate a lot of plants. 100g of fiber is an insane amount of plants.
I find it so crazy when i stumble across a post of yours in the wild! Hi!
This is disingenuous AF. The vegans I've known would have all taken this huge win
You're probably still eating way too much animal products and you'll most likely get bowel cancer and gout if you keep eating like that.
Most likely? By this logic, most people are killed by bowel cancer. They aren't.
I've never been closer to vegan than I am now. And I love meat and animal products and have long given up on the illusion of any ethical consumption in capitalism. It just turns out meat is way overpriced and you can make some tasty meals for cheap without meat and most animal products.
I'm a vegetarian just because it's the cheapest option. Meat is absurd in prices while going fully vegan, where I live, isn't feasible either.
So I live off a mostly vegetarian diet. It's not even for ethical reasons. It's literally a "I want to save money" motivation.
Yeah the only animal I'm tryna save is me. Shits insane rn.
Once governments stop or reduce funding for the meat and dairy industries, prices will continue to go up and more people will be like you. At the end of the day, animal products (especially those from bovines) aren't super sustainable and cost a lot more than we pay at the supermarket.
It's pretty nuts what they're asking for meat. I don't do the major shopping in the family but last time I went to get some ground beef... holy sweet baby cheez wiz. I could swear it the price had doubled since the last time I looked (which was probably pre covid).
There are so many great vegetarian recipes out there. Like, I mean, original things that were designed without meat in mind from the start not fake meat stuff like those vegetarian ribs I made one time. shudders
The prices for beyond/impossible are 1:1 with real ground beef at my local grocerywhore.
The choice is so easy.
I wish those worked for me. It's an autistic texture thing for me, so anytime I try substitutes I nearly gag.
I think as something like a burger it's not that great but stuff like shepherds pie or meatballs where I'm adding other ingredients and seasoning it's indistinguishable. I even fooled my whole family with some homemade beyond meatballs.
Now I kinda wanna try a hamburger lasagna.
"the prices are 1:1 with real ground beef"
Okay, does it provide the same nutrients at the same amount of higher? Even then you're comparing to ground beef, which is too expensive on its own already
I'll stick to my vegetarian diet
Honestly I feel like the idea of "there is no ethical consumption under capitalism" is so lame. Like I understand that you could find something technically ethically wrong with everything, but that statement just feels like a way for people who don't want to give up certain things to justify themselves.
Capitalism, especially modern day capitalism where the government and companies collaborate, does lead to a lot of ethical issues. And yes, I understand that it is not liveable to give up everything that is unethical. But you can still have boundaries.
I mean like, buying oats and grains from a grocery store, which are typically grown domestically, compared to buying dead abused animals or bananas from a company that uses slave labor. Those are totally different things.
If you prioritize buying things that are made in countries that have better labor laws, and avoid animal products, then that's a pretty damn good start.
You absolutely can't let perfect be the enemy of good.
To be honest, I could see myself as a vegetarian. I can still eat eggs, have mayo, and most importantly, eat cheese. Also with vegans, they don't just abstain from eating animals, they also abstain from consuming animal products, and using them in general meaning that not only are you giving up on eggs and cheese, but also leather boots and jackets etc. That's too much. We are omnivores. Our ancestors survived on the scraps left by lions and other predators. Our only way to keep warm was leather skins. We could survive on berries and fungi, but we couldn't keep warm with fire only. Anyways, I'm taking this a bit too far, but my point is, I'm supportive of vegetarians, but not of vegans.
I think our ancestors also hunted large game which is why we evolved to be endurance hunters. Not that we are bound so tightly to our evolutionary as all that. But still.
I support vegans and respect their decisions, I just have little interest in being one myself.
Although when I buy leather products (belts shoes) I tend to buy ones that last decades. So there's that. And yeah I try to reduce meat consumption and I strive to do better.
Humanity has changed a lot over the years, much of it by choice.
There's no such thing as the diet police. No one not terminally-online really gives a shit about movement-purity. Just eat as ethically as possible.
What? You're saying that because we needed leather in the past, we can't wear cotton now to keep warm? At one point we didn't have easy access to plant-based proteins so we should continue eating animal products? By that logic, we didn't have vaccines in the past, so does that mean we can't use them now? Our ancestors also didn't have the internet, so why are you here?
The past was a completely different world. Don't let it hold you back from doing better now.
I exclusively eat meat but I consider myself Vegan because my species comes from the Vega star system.
I don't eat meat or dairy, so i technically i'm a vegan, right? But i wouldn't identify as a vegan. When someone cooks and says: oh i forgot that you are vegan, and i used butter, still eat it. When i'm at a bbq and there is a steak leftover, and no one eats it and it goes to the trash, i would eat it. I find the idea of factory meat absolutely repulsive therefore i don't support it in any way. Once i talked to a vegan guy, and he was super weird so we didn't have a lot to talk about. I told him something like: when i was a kid i was really into chicken wings, and now in hindsight, i don't think chicken is actually good. And he said: oh, you are one of THOSE people. Meat eater are like pedophiles, once you fucked a kid, you'll always be a childfucker.
Eh... Okay, i'll just stand over there and make sure to never talk to you again