this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2023
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To the leftist who is stunned by this message:
Think of Jordan Peterson. There was a time where he was riled up against “ideologies who would kill people in the name of a higher good.” And he named examples, Stalin and Mao most prominently. For all the abstract criticisms of ideologies, he rarely distances himself from Fascism, named Hitler only very occasionally as an example.
Now he is forethinker for the Republican Fascist party which is now normalizing the exact dehumanizing language that the Nazis used to prepared and justify their concentration camps.
Antifascists caught his thought patterns early on and warned of him using fascist arguments much more sensitive than most people, the missing distancing from Hitler along his other prominent examples being one of them.
Now, dear leftists, the mirror of this arguments wants to ask you if you are really only motivated by reducing human suffering and wanting peace. And if so, you cannot ignore the role of Hamas in this longtime ongoing conflict nor in this war. If you skip that, if that’s not in your mirror, it’s big time necessary to go outside your bubble. Because then chances are you are a puppet playing the propaganda trumpet for the Hamas, or otherwise playing in their hands.
Tedious as it may be, missing distance to a terrorist group like that in a conflict like that is a big red flag.
And just as a tedious albeit necessary disclaimer, I believe Netanyahu and quite a bunch of other Israeli actors belong in a courtroom and then in jail for their atrocities, and certainly not in power.
Israel created Hamas, because they wanted to destabilize the PLO and Fatah. They continue to recruit more people for Hamas by killing fathers, wives, and children indiscriminately. Israel's only path forward is genocide--either literal, or through the absolute destruction of Palestinian identity--much like we did in the US to the Native Americans.
That is at best a totally skewed version. Yea we know Netanyahu for a few years let the Hamas grow, and we have records of him with vaguely the reasoning you have there.
But to make Israel entirely responsible for the existence for the Hamas, and for what the Hamas does and wants, demands a world view of an all powerful Jewish government that plans and executes for immense time frames that span generations. Don’t we have that thought pattern in widely spread antisemitic conspiracy theories?
Well, they largely are though, because they created the conditions that allows Hamas to flourish. Israel is the country that has been waging war against the Palestinians. Israel has continually fought against making real progress on a two-state solution, and Israel is the one using it's army to let Israeli colonizers take over more and more Palestinian land in the West Bank. Israel is thr country that is illegally occupying the West Bank. Israel is an apartheid country.
Hardliners--like Netanyahu--oppose any peace process with the Palestinians, and oppose allowing them to have the land back that is rightfully and legally theirs. Hardline Israelis are every bit as deranged as evangelical Christians, and for largely the same reasons.
This isn't about anti-semitism, unless you want to insist that Israel is a Jewish ethno-state, and that any opposition to Israeli policy, politics, and military action is actually antisemitism.
Your comment reads like you're addressing mostly the history since 2005 or so. I definitely see that Israel after the 2nd intifada has had a very different strategy than before, including these things that you outline.
Just don't ignore that there was a history before. There was an offer for a 2-state solution on the table where the world agreed it won't get any better. Arafat just walked away and started the 2nd intifada instead. Hamas is still much older than that. Irans support of the Hamas is newer, though.
It's so lame to blame it all on Israel. My take on this still is that for the security of Israel, it doesn't matter much what Israel does. Their tries for peace negotiations were largely ignored, and their hard crackdowns do shit for their security. The signal to deescalate the conflict must come from Iran, which will impact how Hamas and Hisbollah work.
Arafat did not just "start[...] the 2nd intifada instead". Israel wasn't really negotiating in good faith, and was=--at that time--actively undermining the PLO and Fatah. There was a lot of shit that led up to the 2nd Intifada, and putting the blame on Palestinians, when Israel shoulders a lot of blame due to the actions of their hardliners, is simply historical revisionism. The very fact that Israel continued restricting movements of Palestinians, and weren't--and aren't--willing to dismantle settlements in the occupied West Bank are some of the direct causes. You've also got the provocation of PM Sharon (of Likud, the same party as Netanyahu) showing up to temple mount with an armed contingent that directly kicks off the Infitada.
Lmao. It's beyond pathetic how hard people try to paint literally anything as antisemitic at they can shut down dissent. Do you actually think anyone takes this kind of comment seriously? It's such a ridiculous stretch.
Not to mention that to set it up in the first place, you had to lie and downplay Netanyahu's involvement with Hamas as if it doesn't matter. Lies on top of lies. You must think the rest of us are so fucking stupid.
Every sane person just reading the news of what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank can make their own conclusions. If you really value human life no matter the religion, ethnicity or skin colour you can see a clear pattern.
Really? What we have in the news these days is published by the conflict parties, independent verification is almost never possible.
I don't need the exact numbers to know how bad the situation is. I have a couple of questions for you:
I also want Hamas gone, but don't think this is the way.
Yes, there is all that. As I said, I think Netanyahu and his bunch belong in jail, not in power.
But even if this guy is out of the way, here's a few more questions to consider:
What are, positively speaking, Israels options? What should a moderate follower of Netanyahu do to achieve some sort of piece? I'm lost here. Do you have any ideas other than saying "not this way"?
By being involved in a constructive dialogue, ready to make concessions, outlining a plan to withdraw some Israeli settlements in the West bank, giving more autonomy to Palestine, active persecution of settlers, who are violently attacking Palestinians in the West bank. No double standards in their treatment. In exchange for peaceful disarmament of Palestinians and power transition to PA, but also disarmament of settlers. Removal of some of the checkpoints, outlining a plan of removal of more checkpoints if certain criteria are met. Reconstruction of Gaza.
And tell me how restricting water and food in Gaza helps IDF, I can to certain point understand the fuel ban and to a lesser extent the electricity ban, but food and water are essential for every human being and limiting them is a human rights violation.
Unfortunately at this point there is a lot of bad blood on both sides and this is definitely not a good start.