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Genuinely awful for these two and their families, but the same can be said for ~53,000 dead Palestinians and the rest who are actively starving to death in a Israeli-made famine while aid rots onboard trucks across the border. Both acts are deliberate, and both were avoidable.
And while they were both working for the current extremists in power atm via the diplomatic service, they were a lot more moderate too:
I mean also.....
"In his final post on social media hours before the attack, Lischinsky had shared a post from the Israeli ambassador, Amir Weissbrod, accusing UN officials of engaging in “blood libel” over claims that 14,000 children faced starvation in Gaza."
Not saying they deserved any violence, but even once moderate Israelis have been driven pretty far right in the last couple years. Accusations of blood libel while the state is actively starving children doesn't exactly seem to be promoting any positive dialogue.
Yeeeesh, hadn’t seen that reporting…
It’s unbelievably disappointing to see over and over again that Israelis are broadly okay with the death and destruction in Gaza, when a little over a generation ago they were on the cusp of a genuine two-state solution. And now it’s an ethnostate that practices apartheid, and it’s okay because “Bibi keeps us safe”. Almost as if nothing else matters.
It was always an Apartheid state - their own laws from the very start separate Israeli Citizenship from Israeli Nationality, with only Jews being allowed to have the last (in addition to the former) which has additional rights over mere Citizenship - and it had a Genocide already pretty near the time of its formation called the Nakba, only that was "just" displacement and a few murders rather than mass murdering hundreds of thousands of people.
It's just that for a while their Propaganda was very successful and they might have even be genuinelly considering merelly not taking over the rest of Palestine as giving back that which they had already stolen was never on the table, nor was the return of the Palestinians or a genuinelly equal society for both Jews and Non-Jews.
Israel was always shit since it's formation (which by the way involved them commiting terrorist attacks), it's just that now they've gone extreme Genocidal on their way to commiting a XXI Century version of the Holocaust.
The context is important. A UN official said 14,000 children would die in 48 hours. As it turns out that was a grossly exaggerated claim.
Weissbrod called that out.
I don't think I would really consider it a grossly exaggerated claim, more of just a misinterpretation of a report.
"For now let me just say that we know for a fact that there are babies who are in urgent life-saving need of these supplements that need to come in because their mothers are unable to feed themselves."
"And if they do not get those, they will be in mortal danger," he said.
I definitely wouldn't claim that it was a claim based on antisemitism as Weissbrod is accusing. It's a fact that the Israeli state is starving tens of thousands of people for no justifiable reason. I don't think a misinterpretation of the timeline is really enough to claim someone is participating in blood libel.
Really, guy? You're removing opinions as "misinformation" to protect a genocidal nation's dignity?
Yeah.
Stop. It's awful. Period!
Israel is doing worse by a long shot.
A) One lone gunman goes off the rails and murders two people because they’re Jewish/affiliated with the state. That’s tragic and wrong, and I haven’t yet seen anyone claim that his actions were good and right.
B) An entire government and military decides that their course of action shall be wanton bombing with callous disregard for innocent civilian bystanders, whilst deliberately restricting food, fuel, and medical care to a blockaded nation. That’s willful evil, that is being either openly or implicitly supported by an overwhelming majority of Israelis.
The two scenarios are not the same, but they both are tragic.
But if two people are killed, you don't have to say: "Well, but what about..."
Yes, you’re right, the two events are entirely unrelated. Clearly just another case of anti-semitism out of nowhere. No possible other reason or context exists as to why the gunman was shouting “Free Palestine” as he was arrested after committing double murder.
Whatabboutism is when you deflect from one action perpetrated by your group, towards another action perpetrated by an out-group. Me expressing remorse for their deaths alongside the people their government murdered is not “Well what about…”
I never said that and you don't have to put words in my mouth. Rest here, that's all I wanted to say.
E: Putting words im mouths by the way doesn't really help people to change their mind or discuss constructively, what I tried to do.
I mean context is always important. Pretty sure any murder investigation goes into the motivation of the person who killed the victims.
I think it's important to dispel the notion that the occupation of a neighboring country is somehow an act of protection, when it's pretty obvious that it's sparked a lot of provocation.
But they didn't just pointed out the context. They said: "Genuinely awful for these two and their families, but the same can be said for ~53,000 dead Palestinians [...]". That wording tends to whataboutism which is something I just want to point out. I may be overreacting but this sentence just sounds very adverse.
You aren't over reacting. It's a massive false equivalence comparing what Israel has done against the murder of two individuals. The guy that got murdered isn't Israel. He's a person with opinions, right or wrong. He got murdered for a few tweets and an affiliation with Israel. He's not a combatant, but a civilian. Same for his wife. People justifying these murders are flat out wrong, and there's no place in America for ideological murders. In order to have a system where free speech is protected, you can't allow people to be murdered for their views. There is no defending these murders or trying to justify them.
Thanks.
I mean, I don't think you get to decide what the scope of the context is.
For this not to be contextual you would have to claim that the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians had nothing to do with the gunman's motive. I think that would be hard to claim considering that the murders were politically motivated, considering that the two victims were diplomats.
I think people have gotten a little too comfortable with claiming anything that shares a sentence structure with a logical fallacy to be a logical fallacy. You have to remember that logical fallacies have to be illogical in the first place. It's not illogical to assume these two claims are associated.
Whataboutism have to equivocate two different scenarios that aren't logically associated with the events in the originating claim.
It's illogical to compare them from a moral perspective. You don't get to just shoot people because they have a different perspective than you, because they were raised differently or get their news from different places than you do. It's not exactly whataboutism though, it's more of a false equivalence. Whatever the case, the gunman is not morally justified in murdering these two people. If you think he is, then you are blinded by ideology and shouldn't be allowed to participate in democratic society.
Why are we like this online? Why does the inbox regularly receive with “well ahktually” replies compared to real discussion or comments?
Please don’t twist what I said to build a narrative where I’m some crypto-bigot trying to plant hatred. I wish the Israel apologists applied anywhere near that same level of effort towards the people who actually spew antisemitism…
This exact sentiment is why people don’t talk about Israel, but their reputation globally is in the gutter. Or how actual neo-nazis can pass fake Voltaire quotes that ‘Jews control the global media’ because criticism of Israel is verboten:
In a vacuum that makes sense, but this is going to be used to rationalize/justify some nasty shit. I don't think it's unreasonable to brace for that.