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Murders of two female students prompt calls for a ‘cultural rebellion’ in Italy
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 03 Apr 2025
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"It is often said 'not all men'. But they are always men." Elena, sister of 22-year-old Italian Giulia Cecchettin who was brutally murdered by her former boyfriend.
https://www.americanchronicles.news/harsh-letter-from-the-sister-of-a-femicide-victim-for-giulia-do-not-have-a-minute-of-silence-for-giulia-burn-everything/
That's a very hyperbolic statement, and studies suggest about a quarter of spousal murders are committed by women. Closer to 3 in 8 in America.
How many of those were self-defense (from either sex)? I wouldn't mix them for this discussion.
You can try as much as you like to excuse women from responsibility for killing their partners, but the fact of the matter is, women can be just as ruthless as men, just usually in different ways.
Maternal infanticide is still a thing, and a "pediatric study of mothers in the general population found that 70% of mothers with colicky infants experienced explicit aggressive thoughts toward their infants, and over a quarter (26%) of them had infanticidal thoughts during colic episodes". So, 26% of these kind and loving creatures thought of killing their own child because they cried a lot.
There is a gender disparity, and a much greater difference in expression, but if you want to deal with the root causes of violence, you will have to look beyond gender.
And no, I don't have a pile of these saved up. I'm just willing to accept that people are people, regardless of gender or a myriad of other demographics, unless a clear link is shown between the demographic and the behavior being examined. The trend towards being shitty has far greater factors than gender.
Yeah I agree, I don’t even look at it as a gender thing. It’s a predator thing. Predators go after prey that’s weaker than them. That’s what they do. These woman killers might not be able to take on a man, but they’re strong enough to overpower a kid.
Huh? I explicitly said I would separate self defense for both sexes, because I believe those aren't what we are talking about. I wasn't defending or excusing "women".
Also, both women and men kill because of serious mental disorders ('insanity' in legal terms in the U.S.). How many of those maternal infanticides can be explained by post-partum psychosis or similar conditions? I wouldn't count murders by insane people (from neither sex).
I suspect you're not as unbiased as you'd think...
This whole thing started because of the line, "It's not all men, but it's always a man." I've given a number of circumstances where it's definitively not a man, so is it always a man or not?
When you say “studies suggest” whose studies are you referring to? Are these peer reviewed studies? I find your “facts” hard to believe at face value.
First, I love how you got upvotes for saying, "I didn't bother even trying to find any evidence before posting." But that's not on you.
Second, murders are usually followed up on in the developed world, at least to some degree.
Here's a BBC article. 20% in the UK (I found other regions with higher amounts, but I'm okay with this one). Note also that we are talking about something that is incredibly unlikely. 30,000 deaths worldwide per year of women in relationships by their partners. Assuming half of adult women worldwide are in relationships and noting there are about 6 billion adults gives 1.5 billion women in relationships. Note that the country with the highest rate of singles for both sexes is at 25%, so this is pretty conservative. That is a 2 in a million chance per year. Assuming women are in relationships for 60 years because, why not, puts your risk at 120 in a million of being killed by a partner over your lifetime. That is about 1.2 in 10,000, which is about 10 times as likely as dying from general anesthetic.
So now that we've determined that 1.2 in 10,000 men are killing their partners, and I will happily acknowledge that domestic violence is much more prevalent as long as you acknowledge that depending on region, 40% of victims of spousal violence are men (279000÷(432000+279000)), why would we waste our time targeting men for awareness of spousal violence when most men aren't doing it and a significant part of the people who are doing it aren't men?
3 out of 8 is a weird way to present a static. Kinda a red flag for spotting anyone trying to push a narrative. There's more than enough data on this to present information in solid percentages or when dealing with population numbers of a society in the millions to billions people in base 10 numbers. 1:10, 1:100, 1:1000... 3 out of 8?! Like what was your sample size? 8?!
Little odd of course, but not the worst way to try to illustrate more than 1/4 but not 1/2... Which seems to be in the ballpark of the number he mentioned. If 40% of spousal murders are committed by women it fair to say it's not "always men", but it is more than half but less that 3/4.
This is about Italy, not America. Social norms and mores differ.
Well, I guess if only one in four of these "always men" are women, that doesn't count.
Of course it's not all men, but there are enough men who kill women for no reason that it's a problem ... especially when the 'good' men stand around and do nothing to stop it.
If you don't want to be lumped in with all men, good for you. Then say something when men start making dumb blonde jokes, or kid around about beating women until the listen/obey.
That's a big leap... Dumb blonde to beating women.
While studiously ignoring 25% of the problem. Gotcha.
Using whataboutism to studiously ignore the issue at hand.
It truly is 'all men' when it comes to a discussion about femicide.
Just FYI, you're arguing with someone that agrees with you.
I agree with you too, but only about your main point. Not "all men."
That assumption is the same logic as bigots and the very "men" you are trying to chastize. Let me just rephrase what you wrote to make my point:
You literally are using the same arguments that incels do to justify their hatred and punishment of women.
Just changing the who and what in that argument does not make it a logically sound one.
Anecdotally, I'm a man, and one that has literally saved a woman from being arrested for assault because I recognized she was having an extreme bipolar manic episode, and not just "going crazy" like her female friends believed when they called the cops on her.
The belief our penis prevents us from acting humane is laughable bigotry.
If you want to make a scientific point, don't follow it with unscientific insults.
So we have a problem that is done by a tiny minority of one demographic, and a third as many of the population that aren't part of that demographic, yet you insist that demographic is the key factor in the problem at hand, and I'm supposed to believe I, who haven't committed this act, am a part of the problem.
If you want to keep believing that the core issue is that men (or generally people with high testosterone) tend to be more violent, is the key issue, and not that there are people of either gender who wish to treat others as objects and believe their feelings are more important than other people's well-being, well, who am I to stop you? But you might find it easier to teach people that other people have agency and as many rights as them than you will trying to teach men that being a man is a problem. And you might reach 33% more people at risk of engaging in spousal violence than if you just look at men.
As for the whataboutism, I'm speaking of spousal violence, in which you and the person in the article seem to believe only happens in one direction in any significant amount.
The hell? You're the one who was saying "it's always men," then when presented with evidence to the contrary, you scream "whataboutism"?
You're not helping your cause here, bud.
No evidence has been presented
Wrong. Evidence was presented showing it's 1/5th of women in Italy.
Are there usually good men standing around at the scene of a murder?
Here it is, guys. They want to make it our fault that other people commit murder.
OP, just trying to understand and learn. Why are all your posts fear and rage inducing? All your posts are less than two days old and all of them are articles about problematic topics.
All my posts are not 2 days old, and I posted a good news story today.
https://sh.itjust.works/post/35507046
I appreciate your posts, keep it up!
Thanks. :)
I was hoping lemmy would be free of these misogynistic mobs. I think these guys just proved your point. They presented no evidence or peer reviewed studies back up their made up facts. Femicide and rape culture is a huge problem worldwide. This mobbing of women online is part of the problem.
I saw only one user in this thread try to respond with an unspecified “studies say”. How is that a “mob”?
I’ve seen men enable violence against women my entire life. Bye Felicia
You didn’t really address my question (how is one person equal to a “mob”), and it seems like you’re using a similar type of anecdote to the one you are complaining about—no source, all personal impression. I’m not trying to be contrarian for the heck of it, I just don’t think you’re making a much better argument than the one you are speaking against.
It's possible for it to always be men yet still not apply to all men.
Shocker, I know.
Some of these people need a remedial English course.
Some of these people probably said that in Italian anyways.
And I don't expect that kind of nuance from someone whose sister just got murdered.