this post was submitted on 23 Feb 2024

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Why hasn't The Satanic Temple used the Don't Say Gay bill against Republicans? (lemm.ee)

submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by exocrinous@lemm.ee to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

24 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Okay, so you know the Don't Say Gay bill in Florida? The one that prohibits "gender ideology" in schools?

Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

The words "he" and "she" are gender identities. "Mister" and "Missus" are gender identities. It's illegal for a teacher in Florida to introduce themself as Mr or Mrs. It's illegal for a teacher in Florida to tell a student another child's pronouns, even inadvertently.

If a concern is not resolved by the school district, a parent may …. Bring an action against the school district to obtain a declaratory judgment that the school district procedure or practice violates this paragraph and seek injunctive relief. A court may award damages and shall award reasonable attorney fees and court costs to a parent who receives declaratory or injunctive relief.

As far as I can tell, this is exactly the kind of situation the Satanic Temple exists to help with. All it takes is one single parent in Florida to ask the Satanic Temple's help suing a school for using the words "he" and "she" in the classroom.

BOOM. Overnight, the headlines "DeSantis law forces school to use gender neutral pronouns" would appear. It would be the biggest scandal and loss of face for the Republican party in the eyes of their voters since ever.

Why hasn't this already been done?

all 25 comments

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[–] memfree@lemmy.ml 35 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Three links to the same story: letter recommends referring to all students as “they” and “them” to avoid “gendered pronouns” like “he” and “she.”

'Unrelated' Aftermath:

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 17 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

I've seen that story before, and it doesn't answer my question. I don't think this is an issue teachers can solve by malicious compliance doing the right thing. This is an issue that parents need to solve. Because the bill allows parents to sue (and therefore establish legal precedent), not teachers. If a teacher uses genderless language, as you say, they'll get fired. But if a parent sues a school for having the words he and she, and wins, it is now an incontrovertible part of the law that he and she are forbidden in Florida schools. This means teachers can no longer be punished for following the law, it means they have to follow the law, and this will have a much bigger impact on headlines due to its wider and firmer scope.

Why hasn't a parent done this?

[–] memfree@lemmy.ml 15 points 7 months ago

Note that teachers have an open lawsuit. Specifically:

1. The initial letter was signed, "Thank you, Mx. XXXXXXXXXX"
1. Florida teacher fired for using gender-neutral title Mx.
1. That teach and two others challenged the law in federal court, arguing the state’s laws on titles and pronouns is unconstitutional.

[–] lily33@lemm.ee 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Because judges are people, not robots mindlessly applying legislation. To succeed in such case you need the judges on the trial and all appeals to all decide to maliciously comply with the law.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Or you need a lawyer to make the very easy case, and the judge to have a shred of integrity.

Why haven't they tried?

[–] lily33@lemm.ee 16 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Because it's not a very easy case. In fact, there is no real case.

It's not just a stretch, but a huge leap, to claim that using "he" or "she" counts as "instruction [...] on sexual orientation or gender identity".
And even if you did manage that, you also have to argue that it's also "not age appropriate".
And if you managed that as well somehow, you have the problem that judges can take into account things like the intent of the lawmakers, and what's reasonable, not just the raw text of the law.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Side note:

If marriage is between a man and a woman as Republicans claim, then Mrs is not only a gender identity but also a sexual identity, and is doubly prohibited.

(Arguments that Mrs entails allosexual identity are equally predicated on Republican misconception, in this case lack of understanding of the sex/romance distinction)

[–] dillydogg@lemmy.one 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I think your problem is that you think Republicans care about being logically consistent with their interpretation of the law. I think it's clear that they take the outcome they want, and then work their way backwards.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago

This plan doesn't need Republicans to cooperate. It only needs one parent to try, enough money to hire a lawyer, and a judge to do their job of following the law.

[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 7 points 7 months ago

I would not mind if people started suing schools for having gendered bathrooms.

[–] But_Class_War@midwest.social 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Because TST is shit and can't follow through on their promises and use the courts to go after dissenters.

Plenty of reading at https://queersatanic.com/articles/ but a pattern becomes visible pretty quickly.

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Sounds interesting, but I can't find any 3rd party site discussing this. Do you have any links to neutral sources?

[–] But_Class_War@midwest.social 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

A lot of the articles in the earlier link have links within to additional sources many of them are links to court documents but some are needs stories like this one. https://www.newsweek.com/orgies-harassment-fraud-satanic-temple-rocked-accusations-lawsuit-1644042 obviously Newsweek isn't great but I'm on Mobile atm and it's the first one I found, I'm sure you can find more and from better sources in their article or a search and a lil time

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 1 points 6 months ago

Interesting read. It's very much he said she said so far, so I'll withhold judgement until more facts come to light. This would suck a lot if true, though.

[–] tkk13909@sopuli.xyz 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure how referring to someone as "Mr" would constitute "instruction on gender identity" but do elaborate.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 10 points 7 months ago (2 children)

Introducing yourself as a Mr means informing students you identify as a man.

Also the words man and woman are banned according to law.

[–] vithigar@lemmy.ca 10 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You quoted why this won't work yourself.

in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

They already provided their own "out" for anything they consider acceptable.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 3 points 6 months ago

Nah, because of one word. Or. That means no gender for grade 3 and under, OR no gender that's developmentally inappropriate. So yes, gender pronouns are allowed for the big kids, but not for the little ones.

[–] frogmint@beehaw.org 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Introducing yourself as a Mr means informing students you identify as a man.

No it doesn't. What if I'm a woman who prefers Mr as my title.

Also the words man and woman are banned according to law.

No they aren't. These words tell you the gender identity of someone, but they don't explain what gender identity is.

Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards.

Using words like "Mr," "Mrs," "man," "she," etc. does not constitute "classroom instruction ... on ... gender identity."

If a teacher puts their lunchbag under their desk, they aren't necessarily giving instruction on object permanence. Just because a psychological concept is associated with an act or phrase does not mean that the mere presence of this act or phrase in a classroom constitutes "instruction" on that act or phrase.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

So you're making the argument that if I were a Florida teacher, I introduced myself as Mx Endocrinous, wore nonbinary and trans and gay flag pins, had an it/its pronoun pin, and referred to myself as dronegender, this would all be perfectly legal so long as I didn't explain what any of these words or symbols meant?

[–] frogmint@beehaw.org 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Nope, because now you've started to provide more information than is necessary to identify yourself.

My interpretations of the Florida law for your examples, but of course I'm not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, and my interpretation of the law is different than what I believe is ethical:

I introduced myself as Mx Endocrinous,

This is fine. You're just giving students knowledge to identify yourself.

wore nonbinary and trans and gay flag pins,

I think this is probably on the borderline, but I don't believe the law would allow this. You're conveying information beyond what the students need to know to identify you.

On the other hand, I think the law also prevents someone from wearing anti-trans and anti-gay flag pins (if those exist? I'm not up-to-date on hate symbols).

had an it/its pronoun pin,

Legal IMO. At it's core, it's just two English words on a pin which have meaning far outside the sphere of gender identity. If you're using it to indicate how students should refer to you, it's also legal IMO.

and referred to myself as dronegender,

Not legal IMO. It's outside of the basic information necessary to have a conversation with or about you.

I don't personally this is a particularly good law, but I also don't believe it is as restrictive as you've described it. And I'm not a lawyer. The law is written about "classroom instruction," so as long as what you're doing doesn't constitute that, you're fine. The difficulty, as you've pointed out, is defining what that means.

[–] exocrinous@lemm.ee 0 points 6 months ago

Well if the bare minimum is identification, then all you need is a first name and a last name. No gendered pronouns or titles necessary.

[–] Paragone@lemmy.ml -1 points 6 months ago

You, and everybody interested in this who wants real integrity in their leverage to argue this stuff, need to get Hofstadter's remapping of gender-terms from Mr vs Miss & Mrs to ..

.. IF you are white, THEN there is 1 pronoun for you, ..

.. ELSIF you are black, THEN your pronoun is dependent on whether you're employed or not

written by Douglas Hofstadter ( author of "Godel Escher Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid", the keystone to competent philosophy ), for Scientific American magazine, decades ago.

It may be in the "Metamagical Themas" book.

It was mentioned in the 1990's in the Feminism FAQ as being trailblazing, because it caused what we were unconscious-of to GET in our faces, violating our habits, so we could actually perceive just how prejudiced it is.

searching .. This may be it..

https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

I only glanced at it, it's too jarring for me ( I'd rather that I could just live in solitary isolation for the entire rest of my life: humanity's abuse ), but it may help crystalize the ability to articulate just how stilted this all is.

I completely agree that "Mr." and "Miss", "Mrs.", "Mz" all are gender-identifying, and as-such ought be considered illegal under their law.

But exactly as the convict/felon/inmate Yehoshua "Jesus" benJoseph identiied, a couple of millenia ago, legalists insist on the letter-of-the-law, while ignoring whatever law's inconvenient to their artifice.

Legalists haven't changed since benJoseph called them "Hypocrites!".

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