this post was submitted on 14 Dec 2023
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[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 108 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Only as valued as their productivity.

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 75 points 11 months ago (4 children)

I can partially speak to this from the inside so to speak. I'm not that old, but I had a heart attack and open heart surgery at the end of 2018 and complication after complication through all of 2019.

All of which puts me at greater risk for depression and suicide.

Just when I was medically cleared to go back to the office, we shut down for covid and I haven't been back since.

I started looking for a support group for heart attack/open heart surgery survivors and it was far, far more difficult than I thought.

Plenty of support groups for other conditions, plenty of support groups that advertised as women only, I really couldn't find anything that accepted men.

I didn't need a "mens only" group, just someone who wouldn't turn me away due to my gender.

I finally reached out to one of the women's groups going "Look, I know I'm not your demo, but I hope you can direct me..."

They set me up with a national org, https://mendedhearts.org/ who had an unbranded chapter in my area and I got to talk to people in my situation, it helped, but it was not easy getting there.

There were other problems during lockdown, I became a victim of domestic violence, against which I was helpless due to my medical conditions.

Same problem. No real support for male victims of domestic violence either.

The police directed me to various mental health agencies, for both myself and my wife, but this was peak covid and NONE of them called us back. NONE. Not even a "sorry, we aren't taking new patients", they just completely ghosted us.

My wife finally found a therapist who would "see" her remotely, which was a condition of our staying married, and things did get better.

But after all that... it was really dumb luck. Other folks aren't as lucky.

[–] foggy@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

I just want to say something about the mental health practitioners not calling back:

It's the worst part about getting help is how hard it is to find. This is true for all folks, too. So, I just want to provide a quick how-to because I've been through that particular step 5 or 6 times and it's only slightly less annoying when you know the best steps to take. Not saying you didn't do all these things, and not saying you shoulda known if you didn't, but this is for anyone reading this. This also only applies for US. Idk how other countries do it, but it's probably better than this.

  1. UnInsured? Skip step 2 and 3

  2. Find your health care card. Call the number(s) on the back. Reach a human (never easy). Ask for a list of mental healthcare practitioners that are within x miles of CITY. use biggest nearby city for best results. Or just say STATE if your state is small enough. Regional accuracies may vary.

  3. Go to psychologytoday.com or google around for another mental healthcare finder. Use the list you got from your insurer.

  4. Search by your conditions at a site line psychologytoday.com. curate as long a list of options as you can for your area.

  5. Mass email to all of them. "Hi. I'm dealing with SYMPTOMS, I have this healthcare. I was wondering if you were accepting new patients." Send.

Within 1 week, if you have no response, re email all of them and say you got no response and you're really trying to find help, and if they could give you recommendations, that would be great.

  1. Setup appointments. First sessions suck. And it takes a solid 3 sessions to know for sure if someone is a possible fit.

  2. If they're not a good fit, you go back to your list. This repetition is exhausting, especially because when you finally reach out for help, you're at a breaking point, and all of this feels like too much already. Keep going.

  3. Hopefully you find someone that's a good fit through this process. It sucks. Hang in there.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, the Psychology Today site was the one the police directed me to and the one who ghosted us the hardest. :(

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[–] CherenkovBlue@iusearchlinux.fyi 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Men can help each other and SHOULD help each other. Women's groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women's DV shelters exist, for example. (BTW, women's DV shelters may help men in need, there are arrangements that can be made to help but keep women and kids separated for their mental health and safety.)

Men can do the same thing and should do the same thing. Perhaps growing that sense of community and learning how to help others will build the social support that men seem to be lacking. But you men have to do it collectively yourself - no one "somebody" will do it for you.

I hope you are doing better these days. (Edit): I do not expect you personally to be able to do the hard work of organizing a DV shelter. This is why it is so important for men as a class to work together to support each other too.

[–] HerbalGamer@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

thats good and all but am I the only man who can pretty much only connect with women, on an emotional level?

I've had some good male friends but expecting them to understand or relate is very difficult.

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[–] Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Women's groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women's DV shelters exist, for example.

Isn't this essentially victim blaming and overlooks the very real societal issues and trama that hinders men getting support? You know funding, not being believed by both sexes, lack of awareness, society just not generally caring about men, etc

[–] CherenkovBlue@iusearchlinux.fyi 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn't have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.

My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women's issues.

If "society" doesn't believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.

No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That's not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.

[–] Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

My argument wasn't against advocacy. I was essentially saying that this isn't a problem that is only solved by men. It's a societal issue that men and women have to come together on. Especially since domestic violence on men is often different compared to women

Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive but I find the wording of your original post is more detrimental. Men have to do something if they want help! No we all have to do something.

[–] CherenkovBlue@iusearchlinux.fyi 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Women care. I care about this poor man's story (edit: and women's groups helped out OP to find a group that he could join). But we have our hands full with our own issues. And partnering with good men is part of the success of women's efforts to help themselves.

It will be the same way for men's issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead. Women will help but men need to drive. For example, men's DV shelter services could probably most easily be added by partnering with a women's DV shelter so that there is men's aid in place (though less likely to be needed, depending on location and population density) so it may look a bit different. Men could reach out and drive the development of a partnership program.

I think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.

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[–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in 2017 and it's shit.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The pain that comes with that is just phenomenal and there's no good treatment for it either. :(

[–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago

I'm in a good place now, but I take a lot of meds (some of which are literal poison) and a very expensive infusion. I have excellent insurance, but six years to get back to being able to move has been fun.

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[–] ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 35 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Societies that have been created around the concept that your life is worth as much as the value you produce. People are deeply ingrained with the idea that if you aren't part of the production line then you may as well die and get out the way for the next cog.

To this day, this mentality still benefits the higher up in those societies.

[–] Delta_V@midwest.social 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

That's not just an idea - its physical reality. You can't get your physical needs met in old age if you didn't win the lotto. Suicide is the retirement plan for most of us non-boomers.

[–] agitatedpotato@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago (3 children)

They're gonna be shocked when they see the generation without kids and with unstable retirement funds gets too old to care for themselves. Suicide rates are going to explode.

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[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Somewhat related, but I learned today that Phil Shea who worked as the prop master on the office, died by suicide earlier this week, he was 62. He had a family and friends who loved him, but clearly wasn't speaking to anyone about what was really going on in his head. Older guys tend to be more closed up about speaking up

[–] TronnaRaps@lemmy.ca 28 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Cuz society mocks and looks down upon men who open up and talk. There's very little room for error being a man.

[–] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 15 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Every time I've opened up it's been ignored at best and ridiculed at worst. I just stopped.

[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

Thankfully I have a spouse I can open up to 100% with and will make me feel heard and supported. When I'm at a boiling point, she's good at helping me to ease up. If it wasn't for her though, my mental health would be in the gutter.

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[–] prole@sh.itjust.works 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Thankfully this is changing... I see a clear divide in attitudes in my workplace between the boomers nearing retirement, and the new kids (Gen Z) that are coming in fresh out of college. And all I can say is: good riddance. Boomers are fucking toxic, but the Gen Z kids see right through that bullshit.

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[–] billwashere@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

As an old guy (well old enough) I understand the sentiment. We are the providers, the protectors, the ones that aren’t supposed to show weaknesses or vulnerabilities. As an older gen x’er we weren’t taught how to talk about our feelings. It can be tough for sure.

[–] billiam0202@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

For those who don't know, this is the other end of the toxic masculinity spectrum - the cultural idea that there is a certain way men are supposed to act, and we're perceived as weak or effeminate if we don't. We don't allow (or aren't allowed to) ourselves to express our emotions in a healthy way, so we bottle them up until the stress either kills us, or we kill ourselves.

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[–] Birdie@thelemmy.club 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

My dad died in his late 80s of Parkinson's. For at least a decade before his diagnosis he'd tell me that everyday when he woke up, he'd lost another piece of himself. He went from an active man in his early to mid 70s--he rode his bike 25 miles a day and weight lifted--to a shadow of himself very quickly.

It was tough to watch, and so much tougher for him facing loss after loss of his abilities. He spoke several times of "releasing" himself, but ultimately decided not to do it.

We are living longer, but that isn't always to our benefit.

[–] Muffi@programming.dev 9 points 11 months ago

Sorry for your loss. Your dad sounds like a good guy. I wish we all had a better and easier way to die with dignity and on our own terms.

[–] paddirn@lemmy.world 24 points 11 months ago (5 children)

Watching my Dad decline in his later years was really tough, the man I had known my entire life just fell apart month by month, week by week until he was just a shell of a person. I don't know when it happened, but the person I had known my whole life had already died before his body died later on. Seeing what I saw over the course of years as he declined, I would've completely understood if he had committed suicide well before. It would've been shocking and hard to take, but if he realized what was happening, felt himself slipping away, I wonder if he hadn't at least considered it. He retired a year before he died at 63 and never really got to enjoy his retirement.

[–] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago (14 children)

The capitalists tortured your father out of your father month by month, week by week, until only a shell, no longer productive, was cut loose to die as it was no longer useful to them.

That is what the capitalists do to us while they live large and pat themselves on the back for it.

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[–] agitatedpotato@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Saw this happen to my both my grandfathers, one died around 60 and the other around 80. Even the 60yo one, watching the mental decline was heartbreaking. Being left with literally nothing, losing your memories while you lose control of other parts of your body, these men were long gone long before they passed. Nothing in this world scares me like aging with dimentia does. You literally lose the person, sometimes completely, before they even die and you gotta sit there and be strong for them knowing that the slow desent will come for you too, and thats only if you're lucky enough to get that old. It's just not fair for anyone and there's scarcely any dignity in death.

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[–] GrayBackgroundMusic@lemm.ee 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I feel myself heading this way. So much of my identity is wrapped up in what I can do and service I can provide. When my body fails, and it's starting to slow down even now, what will my identity be?

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[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I'll probably kill myself at that age too

[–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Shit I'm 40 and regret not having done so.

[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago (3 children)

do you want to hang out and suck each other's dicks? I don't even care anymore

[–] brlemworld@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)
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[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

Lemon party detected.

[–] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Lmao. No, thank you, but I appreciate the offer.

[–] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

See, you do still have the will to fight!

[–] dakku@sh.itjust.works 6 points 11 months ago

Damn that's some therapy check mate shit yo

[–] Spacehooks@reddthat.com 6 points 11 months ago

Going the drugs and Vegas route while be chased by 50 US marshals with fireworks shooting out of a stolen sports car in the desert. I Want the grand kids to think I was legendary and not a person stuck in a tomb of a body.

[–] Tedesche@lemmy.world 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Glad to see an article about suicide focused specifically on men for a change. I wish it went into more specific detail about the societal treatment of men and how it fuels their mental health issues, but some attention is better than nothing.

[–] ExLisper@linux.community 4 points 11 months ago

I've seen a lot of those lately. At least in Polish media it was a very popular topic recently. Of course still nothing is being done to address. Then again, what are you going to do? In the end it's really men doing it to themselves. How are you going to change what men think about what 'being a men' means?

[–] Lophostemon@aussie.zone 10 points 11 months ago

I’ve thought about it plenty in the last few years. The only things really stopping me is the idea of hurting my still-living mother, and my kids.

[–] crackajack@reddthat.com 4 points 11 months ago

The founding culture of individualism in America have led to excessive isolation. The atomisation divided communities and separated people from one another. And with globalisation many people have been left out. Which in turn led to many atomised inviduals seeking desperately for any socialisation, many of whom turned to Trump.

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