It's almost as though the company is headed by a dishonest megalomaniac.
this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2023
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I do enjoy the lack of Elon Musk fanboys trying to defend his every word here on [any place that isn't Reddit]
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I guess we add this to the pile of complaints about Tesla.
The real takeaway here for me is that if you make an amazing product, you can treat your customers any way you like. They'll keep buying. Despite all of these complaints, their output is parabolic. They're not just up YoY, they're even up QoQ. In other words, their Q1 2023, which is typically the slowest auto sales period, just beat Q4 2022, which is typically the highest volume period. Their most recent market announcement for Q2 shows 466,140 deliveries; up from 422,875 in Q1. That's 9% QoQ for an auto company. They now command 4.46% of the entire US auto market. An EV company. Not only is their total auto market share increasing, but their EV market share is increasing as well. This despite almost every major auto manufacturer entering the market with a century of auto making experience, and the supply chains to match.
I wonder how much of this is fulfilment of old orders (prior to Musk ruining his public image). It'd be interesting to see a chart of the amount of orders they're getting rather than cars they're shipping.
I think you're overestimating the effect of news stories on his public image
I think we overestimate how much people care about Twitter and stuff. There is not much news about him outside of our bubble.
No one is waiting for their car since July 2015...
I'm always amazed at the amount of well researched pro musk comments pop up under things like this.
I see at least two multi paragraph, cited comments including yours on this thread. Amazing how fast y'all can just fire these huge sets of data off like that!
Before you go cumming over those financials, Tesla is currently slowly losing EV market share as other US producers bring on their vehicles https://www.axios.com/2023/04/05/tesla-ev-electric-vehicle-adoption.
In addition, worldwide BYD is either outselling Tesla or about to outsell Tesla depending on the vehicle type! All that after being laughed off as competition by Musk. https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/07/tesla-1-in-world-bev-sales-by-big-margin-2022-world-ev-sales-report/
The American market loss is a matter of time as the larger auto makers being additional vehicles into the market, the global market loss has been written in stone for years now.
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Hoe much is the penalty for this?
Nothing.
They were already fined in South Korea in January, for lying about the range(it was only $2.2m, but it shows that there are regulations and ramifications).
And it looks like there is evidence of them intentionally making their "remaining distance" softawre lie, and more. So it wouldn't surprise me if the EU is getting involved, which means there might be much bigger fines coming.
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I never trust anything from a big company. I always look at independent tests. If you bought computer hardware based on manufacturer lies you would think you had faulty hardware every time. If you buy food and drinks or medicine based on manufacturer advertising you would think you were sold counterfeit items. Always be skeptical and always verify independently where possible.
There are a lot of independent tests now where different cars are taken to a road and driven at the same time until the battery runs out. Then you get a decent real world example of what the vehicles are capable of. Also with nice direct comparisons to other manufacturers which is nice.
https://nye.naf.no/elbil/bruke-elbil/elbiltest
Use google translate or something if you would like to read, but basically this is a third party test of electric cars that test during summer and winter which is highly relevant for me. and Tesla occupies 2 of the top 3 spots.
*Edit: I actually misread the test. Tesla occupies 3 of the top 3 spots. With a Model S, a Model 3, and then another older Model S.
If I go to buy a new Model 3 Long Range on Teslas homepage right now I get 602 km range estimate. The independent test drove it 654.9 km on a sunny day. It got 514.8 km on a winter day. Winter days in Norway can get quite cold. I would feel quite comfortable buying a Tesla based on this test.
Tesla could say their cars could fly for all I care. The fact is that the Model 3 in this test comes very close to a Mercedes Benz EQS 580 in range. That is supremely impressive. Even if the Model 3 is a lot lighter and less comfortable to drive the range is very impressive for a car that is about a third of the price.
I thought the range was rated by a 3rd party (EPA in the US), is that not the case? They say EPA est. on the website at least but not sure exactly what that means.
It is, but there's a big "but" with that. When the range is determined by agencies like the EPA, the car is allowed to run in the most optimal configuration, meaning:
- No heating
- No AC
- No radio or other stuff running
- No autopilot/self driving, which consumes a significant amount of power
- They even put tape over the gaps in the body (e.g. around the doors) to lower air resistance
- Minimal weight in the car. Only one person, no luggage, no extras that would add weight
- Optimal weather (not too hot, not too cold)
This way they get an artificially inflated official range. Now when a customer buys the car, loads in all their stuff and people and actually uses heating/AC/onboard entertainment/autopilot/... and drives in suboptimal weather their range would instantly show as much less than the official rating. And this is where they were cheating, and would show a range number that was closer to the artificially inflated official one.
To be fair, though, when determining "official" fuel consumption for fuel burning cars, they do the same tricks as above. But they probably won't cheat on the range display, since range is much less of a relevant value for fuel burning cars. Also, everyone expects fuel burning cars to burn much more fuel than it says in the ads.
(That said, when I got my new car, a Dacia Jogger, I was really surprised that the actual fuel consumption is actually lower than the official one.)
EPA tests all cars stationary on a dynamometer through different cycles. Influence of air drag, air condition, cold temperatures etc. are then added through a factor that is typically 0.7 according to EPA‘s official information at https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/testing-national-vehicle-and-fuel-emissions-laboratory
I agree part of the EPA range is calculated but I think it’s wrong to claim that a/c and other factors aren’t taken into account.
I’ve driven my EV better than EPA range at times and that included using A/C and having more than one person in the car. I’m not saying that driving it that way is a ton of fun and I’m not saying that I can do that in the midst of winter. But it’s definitely possible.
I just get a 502 error on that link...
Sorry, I have to admit, I didn't look exactly into what the EPA does, but I have some experience regarding NEFZ, NDEC and WLTP, all of which don't care about stuff like heating or AC.
But EPA has it's own bag of flaws. For starters, these tests aren't done by an independent agency or something, they are done by the manufacturers. They also don't test the real road vehicles, but usually just pre-production prototypes.
And to factor in all of:
- Air resistance
- Heating
- Cooling
- Onboard entertainment
- Weight increase due to passengers and luggage
- Hot/cold weather impacting usable battery capacity
they just multiply the lab test result by 0.7. Compared with the test results from ADAC, that's a correct adjustment would be 0.6, which is a pretty massive difference. For e.g. the Tesla 3, that's a difference from 415km -> 355km.
What's also not part of either of these calculations is what percentage of the time these cars will have to be heated/cooled. There aren't too many countries where the weather is 15-25°C for the majority of the year, yet still the EPA calculates that heating and cooling will only be used infrequently.
The link works ok here. 502 indicates a server problem, so that might have been temporary.
I’ll state that we don’t really need to discuss how standardized measurements will never be able to reflect every conceivable use case in every conceivable geography, because that is simply not what these ratings are there for. They exist to make vehicles simpler to compare.
And of course manufacturers will use (and emphasize) those estimates if that makes them look better. Doesn’t make a difference if EV or ICE manufacturer.
None of my past ICE vehicles ever got close to the rated consumption. Common sense tells me I shouldn’t expect things to be different with a different propulsion system.
I like the Zoe for this reason. It goes longer and faster than the official stats. Maybe because it was a proof of concept car. Of course like any EV it depends a lot on the weather, so the max. range is a pretty useless metric anyway.
Range anxiety is overblown. Any EV can handle the daily commute, and if not, I d probably consider what I'm doing with my life driving hundreds of miles every day.
It's also simply harder to hit peak rpm for optimal fuel efficency for ice vehicles.
The question is do other ev manufacturers use the same standards for determining range. (Answer is probably yes)
For the official range (so the EPA tests)? Totally, yes.
But this article was about displaying an inflated range in while driving. And with that I don't know. As we know, the car industry is generally not extremely trustworthy. Cheating on stuff like that is pretty common. That's why it needs to be called out and punished, to curb it.
So the story here is one of "Tesla has been caught and they are getting (maybe) some trouble for it", not a "Tesla is much less trustworthy than others". It's consumers vs manufacturers, not one manufacturer-fanbase vs another manufacturer-fanbase.
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It's not a level playing field- Tesla game the EPA testing system and use adjustment factors to inflate their on-paper battery range
For what I understood reading the article is the automaker who make the test. Then they can use the epa algorithm, or their own. Tesla did the latter. EPA asked them to reduce of 3% their results. Other brands ? They use EPA algorithm. Most have the correct result. Except for the Hyundai Kona. They underestimated their range.
The big thing is the EPA estimate is a blend of city and highway driving. For ice cars the city is generally lower than highway, but it's the opposite for most electric vehicles. I believe Tesla also uses 60 for highway speed instead of a more realistic 65-70+, the lower speed dramatically increases range.
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Fuck this scum bag. America needs to start fucking with these clowns on a real level.
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Wouldn't this be a gross violation of FCC regulations? I know he's got the capital to deal with any fines, but surely this would get the FCC's attention.
What does the FCC have to do with it? Do you mean the FTC?
I was wondering if this violated false advertising laws? I'm definitely nowhere near a Lawyer, so I can't begin to grasp the nuances of things like that but...
If someone buys the car under the pretense that it will drive 500 miles on one charge, and it consistently only makes it 350 miles, that's not a variable tolerance issue like +/-10% . It's a straight up "I sold you a falsehood" issue.
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And this is why I think plug in hybrids are the way to go for most new car buyers for the next few years. Unfortunately greenies think im a plague doctor peddling useless herbs and the diesel heads are convinced that I invented a way to replace testicles with soybeans.
A PHEV uses 5x less critical material than a compatible BEV, and people with one of these can be in ev mode 80% of the time or at least run the gas engine but get way higher carbon efficiency than ICE alone.
Unfortunately the new IRA bill nuked federal rebate for most of them and dealers are still charging an arm, leg, kidney, and firstborn in dealer markups
hard pass on hybrids. Every hybrid I've known if has had super pricey transmission/clutch issues. I've had too much bad luck with them.
I would go full EV or full gasoline/diesel before going hybrid
Yup, it's cramming two full systems and a not so simple transmission into one car. The great thing with EVs is the design simplicity.
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Most people don't actually need much range most days. Don't forget you start every day with a full battery.
But what about the days that you do, do you have a separate car? Rent a car for any medium to long distance road trips? In the US the family unit is too spread out, hybrids are perfect for people that want the best of both worlds.
...chargers.
For my wife and I, we already have a second car we use for those longer trips. I suspect this is the case for a lot of people, including a family in my neighborhood that has a Tesla. So our daily driver gasoline car could easily be replaced by an electric car with essentially no change to our routines. And honestly a 200 mile range covers even the longer trips we sometimes take that gasoline car on. (Assuming that's a real 200 miles. If it's actually 150 then we're going to need a charge.)
You just stop at a charger and charge the car, then continue driving. Sort of like how a gas car stops for gas.
One thing I think about though is all the extra maintenance that goes into having a gas engine. It would be nice to commit and have the easier future maintenance.
A hybrid does not use 5x less materials than an EV unless your car weighs 1/5th that of a normal car.
My bolt weighs 3600 lbs. Including battery. Does your car weigh 720 pounds?
"critical materials"
Could mean lithium or cobalt or something that's harder to come by than steel or aluminum
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The main reason I haven't switched to EVs is due to the low range and high charge times. For now I'll stick with hybrids. Great range and cheaper (10gal tank).
At least EV's from other vendors wouldn't gas light you about the range.
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