This is not antiwork.
Antiwork
A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.
The new place for c/antiwork@lemmy.fmhy.ml
This server is no longer working, and we had to move.
Active stats from all instances
Subscribers: 2.1k
Date Created: June 21, 2023
Library copied from reddit:
The Anti-Work Library 📚
Essential Reads
Start here! These are probably the most talked-about essays on the topic.
- The Abolition of Work by Bob Black (1985) | listen
- On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber (2013) | listen
- In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell (1932) | listen
c/Antiwork Rules
Tap or click to expand
1. Server Main Rules
The main rules of the server will be enforced stringently. https://lemmy.world/
2. No spam or reposts + limit off topic comments
Spamming posts will be removed. Reposts will be removed with the exception of a repost becoming the main hub for discussion on that topic.
Off topic comments that do not pertain to the post at hand may be removed if it is deemed they contribute nothing and/or foster hostility at users. This mostly applies to political and religious debate, but can be applied to other things at the mod’s discretion.
3. Post must have Antiwork/ Work Reform explicitly involved
Post must have Antiwork/Work Reform explicitly involved in some capacity. This can be talking about antiwork, work reform, laws, and ext.
4. Educate don’t attack
No mocking, demeaning, flamebaiting, purposeful antagonizing, trolling, hateful language, false accusation or allegation, or backseat moderating is allowed. Don’t resort to ad hominem attacks against another user or insult other people, examples of violations would be going after the person rather than the stance they take.
If we feel the comment is uncalled for we will remove it. Stay civil and there won’t be problems.
5. No Advertising
Under no circumstance are you allowed to promote or advertise any product or service
6. No factually misleading information
Content that makes claims or implications that can be proven false or misleading will be removed.
7. Headlines
If the title of the post isn’t an original title of the article then the first thing in the body of the post should be an original title written in this format “Original title: {title here}”.
8. Staff Discretion
Staff can take disciplinary action on offenses not listed in the rules when a community member's actions or general conduct creates a negative experience for another player and/or the community.
It is impossible to list every example or variation of the rules. It is also impossible to word everything perfectly. Players are expected to understand the intent of the rules and not attempt to "toe the line" or use loopholes to get around the intent of the rule.
Other Communities
Server status for big servers http://lemmy-status.org/
I would say the reason antiwork exists is because of the culture we cultivated, the very same unions work to change
How not..?
This is about workers.
Are you trolling? What do you think antiwork stands for?
Are you trolling?
No.
What do you think antiwork stands for?
It's not clear what you're referring to with "antiwork" here. The description of this Lemmy community, which is the critical matter, is as follows:
"A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles."
And where does it say "for unemployed people"?
Why are you asking me? Who are you quoting?
Because you're the person surprised that antiwork has anything to do with people that work. I'm not quoting anyone, I'm demarcating the words I'm asking you to look for.
Because you're the person surprised that antiwork has anything to do with people that work.
I've no idea what you're talking about. You're not making sense. I have not said I am surprised that antiwork has anything to do with people that work.
You literally said "this is not antiwork" because it's "about workers". Stop trying to play games.
This content is allowed since it relates to work reform, which is one of the approved topics on the sidebar.
But it's not antiwork and it's not what the community is about.
Yes it is.
Not according to the community's description.
Don't lie.
A community for those who want to end work, are curious about ending work, want to get the most out of a work-free life, want more information on anti-work ideas and want personal help with their own jobs/work-related struggles.
Why would you seek to end work if you're not working?
Why would you have work related struggles without a job?
How are workers irrelevant to discussions about jobs?
You're asking questions as though I've said things that I haven't.
But you did. You said that the community's description indicates it isn't about work or work reform. I pointed out three points made in the description that are specifically about work.
Why are you so reluctant to pin your point down and discuss?
I pointed out three points made in the description that are specifically about work.
Two of the points are not about work per se but specifically about ending work. Labour organising is not ending work. In fact labour organising is specifically for the purpose of continuing to work.
The third point is about personal work-related struggles. This post is not a community member seeking personal help with work-related struggles.
...what exactly do you think antiwork means? Specifically, what do you think "ending work" entails? Because it isn't everyone stopping labouring.
what exactly do you think antiwork means?
It doesn't matter. What matters is what this community is about. This community is about being idle, not labour organising. Look at the community's icon. Note the presence of In Praise of Idleness by Bertrand Russell on the community's reading list.
Because it isn't everyone stopping labouring.
You've introduced a new term here, "everyone". You're clearly thinking in terms of social movements like socialism or communism. This community isn't about a social movement.
You are extremely misinformed. Antiwork is a movement aligned with socialism. The "work" that antiwork wants to end is capitalist employment, specifically. I have always thought, even back on Reddit, that the name "antiwork" is misleading, since ending work does not mean ending labour, though to most people it is practically synonymous, leading to confusions like yours.
You’ve introduced a new term here, “everyone”.
Again, what do you think "ending work" means? A single person leaving a job and remaining unemployed?
You’re clearly thinking in terms of social movements like socialism or communism. This community isn’t about a social movement.
A community with a goal at the societal level is indeed a social movement. You can't get any clearer than that. Ever hear about "the great resignation"? Yeah, that was part of the antiwork movement.
Also, if you're gonna reference the links on the sidebar, read them. This is from In Praise of Idleness:
Modern technique has made it possible to diminish enormously the amount of labor required to secure the necessaries of life for everyone. This was made obvious during the war. At that time all the men in the armed forces, and all the men and women engaged in the production of munitions, all the men and women engaged in spying, war propaganda, or Government offices connected with the war, were withdrawn from productive occupations. In spite of this, the general level of well-being among unskilled wage-earners on the side of the Allies was higher than before or since. The significance of this fact was concealed by finance: borrowing made it appear as if the future was nourishing the present. But that, of course, would have been impossible; a man cannot eat a loaf of bread that does not yet exist. The war showed conclusively that, by the scientific organization of production, it is possible to keep modern populations in fair comfort on a small part of the working capacity of the modern world. If, at the end of the war, the scientific organization, which had been created in order to liberate men for fighting and munition work, had been preserved, and the hours of the week had been cut down to four, all would have been well. Instead of that the old chaos was restored, those whose work was demanded were made to work long hours, and the rest were left to starve as unemployed. Why? Because work is a duty, and a man should not receive wages in proportion to what he has produced, but in proportion to his virtue as exemplified by his industry.
This is the morality of the Slave State, applied in circumstances totally unlike those in which it arose. No wonder the result has been disastrous. Let us take an illustration. Suppose that, at a given moment, a certain number of people are engaged in the manufacture of pins. They make as many pins as the world needs, working (say) eight hours a day. Someone makes an invention by which the same number of men can make twice as many pins: pins are already so cheap that hardly any more will be bought at a lower price. In a sensible world, everybody concerned in the manufacturing of pins would take to working four hours instead of eight, and everything else would go on as before. But in the actual world this would be thought demoralizing. The men still work eight hours, there are too many pins, some employers go bankrupt, and half the men previously concerned in making pins are thrown out of work. There is, in the end, just as much leisure as on the other plan, but half the men are totally idle while half are still overworked. In this way, it is insured that the unavoidable leisure shall cause misery all round instead of being a universal source of happiness. Can anything more insane be imagined?
Also, I really like this part from The Abolition of Work:
When I say I want to abolish work, I mean just what I say, but I want to say what I mean by defining my terms in non-idiosyncratic ways. My minimum definition of work is forced labor, that is, compulsory production. Both elements are essential. Work is production enforced by economic or political means, by the carrot or the stick. (The carrot is just the stick by other means.) But not all creation is work. Work is never done for its own sake, it’s done on account of some product or output that the worker (or, more often, somebody else) gets out of it. This is what work necessarily is. To define it is to despise it. But work is usually even worse than its definition decrees. The dynamic of domination intrinsic to work tends over time toward elaboration. In advanced work-riddled societies, including all industrial societies whether capitalist or “communist,” work invariably acquires other attributes which accentuate its obnoxiousness.
Usually—and this is even more true in “communist” than capitalist countries, where the state is almost the only employer and everyone is an employee—work is employment, i.e., wage-labor, which means selling yourself on the installment plan. Thus 95% of Americans who work, work for somebody (or something) else. In Cuba or China or any other alternative model which might be adduced, the corresponding figure approaches 100%. Only the embattled Third World peasant bastions—Mexico, India, Brazil, Turkey—temporarily shelter significant concentrations of agriculturists who perpetuate the traditional arrangement of most laborers in the last several millennia, the payment of taxes (= ransom) to the state or rent to parasitic landlords in return for being otherwise left alone. Even this raw deal is beginning to look good. All industrial (and office) workers are employees and under the sort of surveillance which ensures servility.
But modern work has worse implications. People don’t just work, they have “jobs.” One person does one productive task all the time on an or-else basis. Even if the task has a quantum of intrinsic interest (as increasingly many jobs don’t) the monotony of its obligatory exclusivity drains its ludic potential. A “job” that might engage the energies of some people, for a reasonably limited time, for the fun of it, is just a burden on those who have to do it for forty hours a week with no say in how it should be done, for the profit of owners who contribute nothing to the project, and with no opportunity for sharing tasks or spreading the work among those who actually have to do it. This is the real world of work: a world of bureaucratic blundering, of sexual harassment and discrimination, of bonehead bosses exploiting and scapegoating their subordinates who—by any rational-technical criteria—should be calling the shots. But capitalism in the real world subordinates the rational maximization of productivity and profit to the exigencies of organizational control.
Antiwork is a movement aligned with socialism.
That's not what this community is about. I think you want
A community with a goal at the societal level is indeed a social movement.
This community doesn't have a goal at the societal level.
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn't work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: !antiwork@lemmy.ml
Provide evidence. I've provided mine, which you simply ignored.
Provide evidence.
The description of the community seems evidence enough to me.
I've provided mine, which you simply ignored.
I don't see evidence of anything. You've provided your opinions and asked lots of questions and presented some quotes. You haven't shown that anything you've presented is related to this community. For example, the community description makes no mention of a "movement" and yet you assert that this community is about a social movement.
The description of the community seems evidence enough to me.
Not at all. What about it proves this community has nothing to do with work? You've proved you can copy and paste, but not that you can read and understand what is written.
I don’t see evidence of anything. You’ve provided your opinions and asked lots of questions and presented some quotes.
Okay, you really have to be trolling, or else you clearly have never been in a debate before. I didn't "provide opinions". I interpreted the quote you pasted without engaging with. I highlighted the sections that were relevant and drew out rhetorical questions (have you never heard of them before?) to make you consider what it means.
"Presented some quotes". Don't make me laugh. Those quotes aren't random bullshit. The very first one was an essay you yourself highlighted - at least, you looked at its title. I read through it and found that it directly contradict your assumptions about it. This is called research, and you should get better at it if you want to take part in any debates.
You haven’t shown that anything you’ve presented is related to this community
Excuse me? Those quotes come from links directly in the sidebar. Did you only glance at my comment? I see no other reason for you to have missed where I stated what exactly those quotes were, and where they were from. They couldn't be any more obviously relevant. Again - the first quote comes from an essay you mentioned.
For example, the community description makes no mention of a “movement” and yet you assert that this community is about a social movement.
It is literally named "antiwork". Antiwork is a movement.
What about it proves this community has nothing to do with work?
I haven't asserted that this community has nothing to do with work.
It is literally named "antiwork". Antiwork is a movement.
Firstly, that article uses a hyphen, "anti-work", which is not strictly the same as either the name of this community or the word you used in your link to the article.
Secondly, "antiwork" is a generic latin word. Just because this community is named using the same generic latin word as something else, doesn't imply that the two are directly related.
Lastly, even assuming for the sake of argument a movement called "antiwork", you still haven't shown that this community is about that movement. There is no mention of a "movement" in the community description and you have shown no connection. This community is not mentioned in the article you linked to.
I haven’t asserted that this community has nothing to do with work.
Playing this game, are we? I've already proven you wrong on this claim, so I won't waste me time doing it again. Instead I'll copy and paste what I said last time:
'You literally said “this is not antiwork” because it’s “about workers”. Stop trying to play games.'
Firstly, that article uses a hyphen in the word, “anti-work”, which is not strictly the same as either the name of this community or the word you used in your link to the article. That’s a small point but could conceivably be significant.
Significant how? Don't try and use speculation as argument. It won't work. Without a solid point, I can completely ignore this.
Secondly, “antiwork” is a generic latin word.
Nope, it's English. English may be derived from Latin, by calling it Latin is fucking bonkers. Also, nothing generic about it when there's a movement by that name. I could start a community and call it "communism", then pretend to be surprised when people connect it to the already existing movement of the same name, saying "but it's just a movement that values community! Community is a generic Latin word!"
Sophistry, Nothing more.
Just because this community is named using the same generic latin word as something else, doesn’t imply the two are directly related.
Explain how it is generic and not specific. Use evidence or reasoning. Don't just state things and expect the bare, sourceless, baseless statement to stand as an argument alone.
Lastly, even assuming for the sake of argument a movement called “antiwork”
"Even assuming"? You're now denying that the antiwork movement even exists? I already provided evidence that it does. What the fuck are you even trying?
Is this how you always argue?
you still haven’t shown that this community is about that movement.
It has the same name, the same aims, and uses the same arguments to make its claims. This isn't rocket science.
There is no mention of a “movement” in the community description and you have shown no connection.
The communist community doesn't, either. Is communism also not a movement, by these standards?
This community is not mentioned in the article you linked to.
The article was written during the Great Resignation, before this Lemmy community existed. You're really fucking reaching.
If you want this stupid conversation to end, just give me one good reason why you think this community has nothing to do with the larger antiwork movement. Why is it so important for you for them to be disconnected? Do you have a grudge against this community in particular?
nothing generic about it when there's a movement by that name
A word being used as a name does not imply that the word is not generic.
Explain how it is generic and not specific.
"Anti" is a generic latin prefix that designates negation or opposition. So "anti[anything]" just means "[anything] negated or opposed". The word "work" is a generic word and not a name. Therefore the word "antiwork" is a generic word and not specific. Like "unenlightened", "maladjusted" or "antirational".
It has the same name
Again, having the same name is not proof of a direct relationship.
the same aims and uses the same arguments to make its claims.
You haven't shown that this community and the anti-work movement have the same aims or make the same claims. Even if you did, that's still not proof of a direct relationship.
Antiwork has only one possible meaning - the meaning associated with the movement. You are reaching incredibly far to try and work around that. It is not generic - it is only used for one purpose by one type of people. It is quite specific.
Yes, using the same name, making the same points and working for the same causes means you're part of the same movement. You cannot argue otherwise and make sense.
Yes, I have shown that they have the same cause. The essays they link demonstrate their ideological source. The arguments inherent there are the ones inherent across all antiwork.
Antiwork has only one possible meaning - the meaning associated with the movement.
I disagree.
Antiwork can be silly but it's not exclusively made up of a bunch of unemployed people
Please carefully read rule 3, which defines what is allowed.
I've read the rules. Rule 3 doesn't contradict what I said.
Rule 3 explicitly allows work reform, which includes unions.