this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
125 points (97.0% liked)

World News

39000 readers
2390 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

The top European Union court ruled on Tuesday that public authorities in member states can prohibit employees from wearing signs of religious belief, such as an Islamic head scarf, in the latest decision on an issue that has divided Europe for years.

The case came to the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) after an employee of the eastern Belgian municipality of Ans was told she could not wear an Islamic head scarf at work.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Mr_Blott@lemmy.world 32 points 11 months ago (1 children)

TL/DR like most people do -

Woman says her right to freedom of religion had been infringed.

EU says that a public service would also be justified if it decided to authorise, in a general and indiscriminate manner, the wearing of visible signs of belief.

The court said authorities in member states had a margin of discretion in designing the neutrality of public service they intended to promote.

However, this objective must be pursued in a consistent and systematic manner and measures must be limited to what is strictly necessary, the court said

Not about headscarves or anything in particular, just about any religious paraphernalia

[–] ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

I fully support that honestly.

I fully believe religion has no place outside of private property whether that's your place of worship or your own home.

Outside of those two places no one other than your fellow believers gives even the slightest fuck about your religious beliefs.

[–] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I'm not from the EU and don't have the context to really understand the history of this decision, but this just seems so unnecessarily divisive.

[–] fubo@lemmy.world 37 points 11 months ago (11 children)

It's a different approach to religious neutrality in government than the one used in the US, but I'm not convinced it's an invalid one.

(In the US we have difficulties over government employees refusing to do their legally required job because "it's against their religion" to process paperwork for people they disapprove of, e.g. The Gays.)

[–] xkforce@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago (1 children)

How does wearing a scarf inhibit these employees' ability to do their job? It is one thing if they posed a valid safety concern i.e theyre working around machinery that the scarf could get caught in but thats not the case here the vast vast majority of the time.

[–] yggdar@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

One of the arguments that gets used is that the employees should look neutral. For example, if you want to get your gender changed you might not be comfortable with someone who is visibly associated with a religion that disproves of gender changes.

[–] xkforce@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

That is a valid argument. But given the lack of sympathy and support for the LGBT community otherwise, it is highly unlikely to be a major motivation. And the thing I wonder is whether this is or was also enforced on other religious symbols or is this specific to this particular one. If the former then it is consistent policy but if it is the latter that is another story.

[–] Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Refusing to do part of the job would be an impairment of government function. A headscarf does nothing to impair function of the employee to do their job.

Rather by banning it there creates a undue barrier to the participation of women of this religious backgrounds in government by not realizing the modesty principles of their culture. It is more akin to not allowing a woman to work in a field unless she does so wearing nothing but her underwear.

[–] HamSwagwich@showeq.com 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

It shows a sign the government endorses one religion over another. More importantly, we should not allow any religion in governmental offices and duties. Keep your stupid religion in your church. I don't want to see or deal with it when I'm dealing with the already shitty government experience. I don't need to deal with your mental illness, too.

[–] Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (20 children)

Like it or not religion is a formative part of people's lives. If letting someone essentially wear a hat to work is "favouring on religion over another" then I can only posit that comes from a place of extreme pettiness. Where I am we have a large number of Sikh folk and I have gone into government offices and been served by agents wearing turbans a number of times. Not once has it ever been commented on. Not once have they ever mentioned their religion to me nor I commented on it to them. Neither would have been particularly proper because between the both of us in that professional setting it is quite strictly none of our business. I can't say that what the agents were wearing ever in any way altered my experience.

It is the attitude of killjoys and sour grapes to strip people of the things that make them feel confident in the way they conduct themselves when out in the world or at their workplace. Your feelings about a piece of cloth are not most important. You only have to deal with a government agent once in a while in a professional capacity and your very temporary discomfort is not to be highly weighted. For the person forced to give up the things that make them feel supported and comfortable they feel that lack every single day. It is a crushing and disheartening experience.

load more comments (20 replies)
load more comments (9 replies)
[–] xkforce@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)
[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago

To me not having visible religious symbols when in public service seems very much in line with the idea of secular government

[–] NewPerspective@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Why? Who is this good for?

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 17 points 11 months ago

Those in favour of secular government and separation of religion and state

[–] HamSwagwich@showeq.com 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Intelligent people who don't want imaginary friends working in government? Which translates to better service for everyone since the mentally ill will hopefully be discouraged from seeking a job position that is in charge of the public? Go work in a church if you want to pull that shit.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] JoeKrogan@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago

Personally I don't see the problem if they want to wear it. It is not harming anyone and in fact it may help people to integrate more and feel more represented if they see people similar to them in a public position.

[–] Tygr@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The entire world is figuring out you can’t please them all, legally.

If, legally, religious attire is allowed as an exception, then they must allow those satanists to wear theirs. Solution? Businesses and service providers can no longer restrict clothing, including if someone wants to work in a bathing suit. Or, face an expensive legal battle.

If long hair on males is forbidden in the schools, then you must be willing to force a Native American to cut his hair. If you are willing to do that, then expect more legal restriction and an expensive legal battle.

All this stuff is going through the courts in various countries in various extremes. Been interesting to watch over the last couple decades.

[–] autotldr@lemmings.world 3 points 11 months ago

This is the best summary I could come up with:


BRUSSELS, Nov 28 (Reuters) - The top European Union court ruled on Tuesday that public authorities in member states can prohibit employees from wearing signs of religious belief, such as an Islamic head scarf, in the latest decision on an issue that has divided Europe for years.

The municipality subsequently changed its terms of employment to require its employees to observe strict neutrality by not wearing overt signs of religious or ideological belief.

The woman concerned launched a legal challenge, saying her right to freedom of religion had been infringed.

It added that another public administration would also be justified if it decided to authorise, in a general and indiscriminate manner, the wearing of visible signs of belief.

The court said authorities in member states had a margin of discretion in designing the neutrality of public service they intended to promote.

However, this objective must be pursued in a consistent and systematic manner and measures must be limited to what is strictly necessary, the court said.


The original article contains 264 words, the summary contains 166 words. Saved 37%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!

[–] j4k3@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Religion is comic con with fans that kill each other regularly.

Label every instance of hate speech, and fantasy magic as primitive nonsense in a way that is obvious to the dumbest of people.

Like, "everyone in this era was illiterate and uneducated so 5k people present was 5k idiots" "drug use was prevalent" "mental health issues like schizophrenia and seizures were demon position because of ignorance and were used as parlor tricks to convince idiots con artists were magic" "religion was not separate from state in ancient times and the political struggles and propaganda are obvious"

There are so many aspects that people only believe because it was taught as toddlers when everyone is a gullible idiot. The vast majority of people only follow it because of the social network isolation and inability to connect with people in an open and trusting way outside of this context. Fighting the symptoms of religion is nonsense. Educate to remove the duality of "magic is real in religion" and create more physical community connectivity to break down entrenched social network isolation.

[–] agent_flounder@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

I hope we as a species get past the irrationality of religion, some day, or at least toss the regressive ones in the bin alongside all the other mythologies of the past.

[–] Zahille7@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Speaking of Comic-Con, there was a guy proselytizing in the middle of an intersection this summer at SDCC

I kinda stopped reading after that first line.

[–] xmunk@sh.itjust.works 3 points 11 months ago

You made a good decision.

load more comments
view more: next ›