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If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it's a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it's wrong, just hard.
it's a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we're helping just by being quiet.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren't allowed to do that.
I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. "Are we fixing or bitching?" is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it's made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I feel like that would be the wrong question to ask my wife while she's venting.
I always ask “is this a rant or are you asking for a solution?” Same question but worded in a way that isn’t going to cause problems.
Yeah I guess it depends on the person you're talking to. Most people I've asked the question will usually laugh and say, "we're bitching right now."
I respond with, "bitch away."
I (37M) recently caught myself getting frustrated when my wife offered solutions to my ranting. I just wanted to complain and not be told all the ways I could have avoided the problem in the first place. I finally understand.
Yes! It totally happens to everyone, once you notice it. Best self-awareness/relationship advice I've heard is say something like "Are you looking for advice, or someone to listen?". Phrasing and tone to be adjusted by the individual user, obviously XD
There is, I think, a significant difference between giving suggestions on how to resolve an issue, and a person offering ways you could have prevented it. And I would hazard most people find the latter unhelpful and annoying.
Thank you, yeah it's like sometimes you just have to work through it before you hear some suggestions.
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don't need a solution, sometimes there isn't even a solution.
As a problem-solver, it isn't only women.
This could also be an issue of this:
The difference between empathy and sympathy
In my experience some people struggle with empathy a lot more than they realise. And the "solutions" they offer are just ways for them to try and get out of an uncomfortable conversation. There are better and more honest ways to do that.
I forgot who, but someone told me i should ask; "do you need an ear or a solution" whenever people come rant about anything. Best tips i heard in a while.
Yes, I started doing this as well with my GF. If she is describing a problem at work or whatever I ask "Do you want me to tell you how I would fix this, or do you just want me to listen?" and like 75% of the time she already knows what to do and just wants me to listen to the problem and then when she is done she feels better because she got to vent, but sometimes she really does want an answer. It works out good for both of us.
Most people, especially women, crave connection. We want to feel seen and understood. Cutting us off to provide a quick solution feels as if you really just want us to shut up so you can go back to whatever you were doing.
I acknowledge that the cutting off part is valid, but that wasn't in OPs post.
Top the broader point, I can say confidently that many men feel like to provide an actionable solution to a problem projects exactly what you say that you want - to us it says that we've seen, heard and understood you and we cared enough to process the information we heard and offer a solution that we formed by investing some real thought/energy into you as a person we care about.
Can you empathize with how, to a person with the above perception, that just quietly nodding along and saying, "that's really tough" or "I'm sorry about that honey" would sound like exactly the opposite of what you say you want - Like we're not actually tuned in and listening to you, but rather just waiting for pauses in your speech so we can share generic platitudes while maintaining eye contact to give the illusion that we're invested?
It's a tricky balance and there's likely just a fundamental disconnect that we should address. I think you and I can solve this one for the whole world going forward though, what do you think?
Oftentimes though, if I'm sharing frustration with something, I already have a solution. It's just that it's hard, or inconvenient, or stressful. If my partner comes in immediately with solutions, the discussion immediately turns to practical discussion of the solution I have in mind vs. what my partner thinks is best. If I already have a viable solution in mind, this is not what I need and puts me on the defensive when I'm already stressed and hurt. Especially if my partner doesn't fully understand the problem yet. This has the capability to turn into arguing very fast because it presents the opportunity for disagreement without dealing with underlying emotional states.
However, if my partner instead listens, starts by supporting me emotionally, "I'm sorry, that's tough", and lets me get my piece out, I'm already going to feel a bit better, especially if I can trust my partner not to assume I just haven't thought about it enough. Much of the time, all I need is reassurance and confidence-building in the solution I already have - mirroring on an emotional level without focusing on finding better practical solutions is a perfect way to do that. After I'm freaking out a little less and have laid out the full problem and it's completely understood, I don't mind some "have you tried X" or "what would you think of Y" conversation. But the emotional work and full understanding of the problem has to come first for that to be productive.
Damn. Downvotes for a perfectly cogent explanation. Those of you downvoting consider that not everyone wants, needs, or has the same relationship dynamics or even personal philosophies towards emotional work and reactions to problems.
Unprocessed feelings always come out in some way, not all healthy. Suppressing temporarily or venting are only part of the equation. Choosing to process negative shit with or in front of a partner is something for each person and couple to figure out.
At the same time, the way I understand issues and connect with people is to try to relate to them and bounce that back. It helps to make sure my understanding is correct, or identify what is missing.
If that includes something that sounds like solutions, sometimes that's just the natural course of conversation, and people should be just as understanding about the other side of the conversation.
It begins to come across that someone is not looking for conversation, just an audience, and that's not a happy feeling to be on the end of either. It makes us feel just as ignored. After enough of that feeling long term, we can't help but feel like we aren't getting the connection we crave either.
This is a two-way communication issue, and when there's a breakdown, that's not always on us as listeners.
I mean kinda is true though? Ignoring an easy fix just so you can keep complaining about the problem makes it feel like you don't actually care about the issue, you just wanted any excuse to complain at me. On our end, the problem and feelings of frustration surrounding it weren't "invalidated" until you decided continuing to be frustrated was more important than having a possible answer to the issue.
We want you to stop complaining about it because the problem is addressed and isn't a problem causing frustration anymore. NOT because we're just annoyed hearing you talk and want to shut you up and invalidate your feelings about the problem.
If anything this narrative of "oh God just shut up" invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
It's the relationship equivalent of watching conservatives go on and on and on and on about underage pregnancies when multiple institutional remedies are right there, and they proceed to ignore those solutions in favor of getting to continue complaining about the problem.
Why is it my responsibility to validate feelings you yourself are telling me are just kvetch that you actively choose to keep being mad about instead of addressing to not waste energy on being angry.
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn't ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This "gift" was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said "Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can't we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?"
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don't know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I'm also very introverted, back then I didn't have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn't even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn't even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
Probably your mom.
Same here. After marriage, I did learned to tone down on this.
"Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?"
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
"Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?"
My mother is a steel woman, rational and calm, no bitching, no crying, there is a problem? fix it. You need something? say it, don't expect others to guess. Words are empty, you care? See what that person needs and help them. Not a fan of corny things, you want love? There is this delicious food, and a hug, now grow up and keep going.
Aaand everything she taught me, has put me at odds with every women I have dated.
I let you in on a secret: these type of people exist in every gender. So do people who are sensitive and emotional. Stereotypes and sexism about that is dumb. Believing anecdotal evidence speaks for a whole group of people is dumb as well.
What works if someone has a preference is to look early into how a person ticks. Instead of focusing on stereotypes and other superficial assumptions (for example).
They key is to do both. Listen intentently, respond with something like "wow that sucks, would you like a hug?" And then while hugging say something like "is there anything I can do to help you with this?"
That's what will give you your answer. If she says "no" then just let it be. If she says "I don't know" help to guide her to the solution. Ask "what do you think could be done to make it better?" And let the pieces fall in place.
Even if you know the answer, it's better to let people come up with it on their own. They'll feel understood and empowered, and you won't get shit on for being calous. Everyone wins
You're not getting it. The listening is the help
This meme is pretty belittling to the wife in this scenario and it's kind of fucked.
Rule #1 of being in a relationship is learning to listen and empathize with your partner. Just sit, and listen quietly, and tell them "that really sucks, I am so sorry, I'm here for you" It's really that simple. Most of us are techy and leap to a solution because that's how our brains are wired but they just want someone to listen. Just listen
Concurrently, constantly telling a rational problem solver problems and not letting them offer solutions ALSO takes a mental toll on the listener.
It's bidirectional. It probably will result in compassion fatigue.
The problem is 9 times out of 10, your problem solving won't help because they've already thought of the fix or you don't have enough of the nuance involved to offer a viable solution. So to insist on offering, means that your partner now has to balance your ego and how to tell you "yeah I know" or why your idea won't work.
Top the rational thinker, the problem is "I need to vent my emotions in a healthy manner" and the rational solution is "listen" and if the problem transitions from "I need to vent" to "I need help" then you can work on a solution together.
The core problem, as always, is communication.
If you want to vent, or gain some compassion and care, and you're talking about your problems to a problem solver - say it.
Don't say "I have problem A and I don't need solutions". Say "I know what to do with this, but it's very frustrating and I need your support". Yes, just like that. Admit, with words, that you want them to care for you. That's it.
If you're a problem solver, and you know the other person is often willing to just vent, or if you're not completely sure your advice is wanted, ask it.
Don't say "Just do B, problem solved". Say "I might have some ideas on how to help you. Do you want my advice or should I just be there for you?". And then if they want it - go for it! Don't expect them to be ignorant of simple solutions; most likely they already thought them over, and either dismissed them for reasons not obvious to you from the first glance, or they already made it part of their plan.
Talk such things through, it will do wonders. For both of you.
Fair, but let's be honest, most of the time a partner may not want to hear about a solution because they first want compassion and understanding. Be willing to listen, and your partner will talk about a solution when they are ready.
Venting is important as a support person. Sometimes it really is just being there for the person.
I'm a problem solver. I know how to solve those problems!
It took years of marriage before it was pointed out that's not what the complainer wants.
Whenever I complain, I usually already know what needs to be done to solve the problem(if there is a solution). Venting is honestly more for emotional affirmation than anything else.
Of course, if I would suggestions or help, I would not hesitate to ask for them.
I don't think asking questions can ever be a bad thing, really, especially if you're not cutting anyone off. That's not in counter to the post, or anything, I just think it's generally a very good idea. You can honestly listen to someone with questions, and it shows that you're thinking about their problems in a way that's more real than just like, making eye contact, saying garbage platitudes, and then kind of being like the human equivalent of a teddy bear or some sort of comfort object for someone. A well directed question can often get more to the root of the problem more than anything else, I think. You can also direct people around with questions, but that's maybe best left for your good faith actual listeners, rather than people who just want to abuse their question-asking so they can direct someone towards what they think the solution is.
I dunno. people are just like. Not good listeners, at all. I'm not, most of the time, I like to think that I'm decent at it when there's something that matters, but then I also have a pretty big brainfog whenever this shit happens, and I forget to ask questions sometimes, which really, really, impairs your ability to comprehend the whole situation. The biggest thing is just trying to piece everything together, right, that's a good use of your conscious thought. A bad use of your conscious thought is thinking about what you're gonna say next, or remembering whatever like. scripted response you've come up with for this scenario, slotting this scenario into a specific "problem" set that you're gonna pretend that you've already solved.
On the flip-side, I do find it kind of annoying when you ask someone some question like "well have you tried talking to them?", and they interpret that as "what do you think I'm STUPID do you think I haven't TRIED THAT!", when usually the purpose of a question like that is more like "what was the result when you talked to them?". It's to spurn on more context, it's a platform to vent more, basically. The language of the question could be more precise, yes, but oftentimes people are so used to not being talked to and engaged with as human beings, that they kind of default to taking every question as a bad faith attack on their intelligence as a sort of defense mechanism, or something. It's kind of annoying, and when that happens you have to deliberately be more precise and be more careful to get across explicitly that you're invested in their life, but it's just like. It's just a thing I've noticed that people do sometimes, I guess, what I'm saying is, be on the lookout for that more. Don't get mad when/if that happens, just be like, oh, my bad, sorry, that's not really what I meant to say, I meant to say (insert more precise and carefully worded question here).
That's it, that's all I got.
edit: Actually it wasn't. Most of the time, the solutions you're proposing are garbage, and your partner (usually, unfortunately, could be whoever you're talking to) is elevating the conversation to a more top down view of why all your solutions suck. The reason it's important to ask questions is because the problems everyone is having are usually more complex than the solution you can come up with in five seconds. People aren't like, "how do I fix my toilet", and then you just tell them to turn off the water. The problems people have are way more complicated than that. At least give it five minutes of listening, you will be impressed by the results.