this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2023
480 points (82.6% liked)

News

23275 readers
3413 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] someguy3@lemmy.world 126 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

assumed evolution was acting primarily on men, and women were merely passive beneficiaries of both the meat supply and evolutionary progress.

He was superimposing the idea of male superiority through hunting onto the Ainu and into the past.

This fixation on male superiority was a sign of the times not just in academia but in society at large.''

At that time, the conventional wisdom was that women were incapable of completing such a physically demanding task

Scholars following Man the Hunter dogma relied on this belief in women's limited physical capacities

Today these biased assumptions persist in both the scientific literature and the public consciousness.

"Powers of Estrogen" infographic.

This is quite the charged language and I'm not even halfway through. Throw in a bunch of other stuff about the Boston marathon and gender presentation in movies, yeah this isn't that good of an article.

Before I'm downvoted into oblivion, we probably all took part in hunting. They've found the speed differences in running between ages and gender are not extreme, so we likely all went out running and hunting together. But men probably took on the more dangerous and physical aspects, but everyone with a spear is a more capable unit.

[–] EatATaco@lemm.ee 30 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I read most of it, not bothering with full paragraphs when I could see the idea at the beginning, and from what I saw it doesn't get any better.

It points out that the only physical sport activity they women excel at is ultra marathons. it then goes on to day that flexibility when it comes to family roles was important for survival. And this I absolutely agree with and it is certainly the case that women can hunt too.

But the author just seemingly completely ignores the argument that women can still fill the role, even if there is some kind of specialization that makes one sex generally better at one task then the other. The fact that we are different almost certainly means this is the case.

[–] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

the only physical sport activity they women excel at is ultra marathons

And men still have much better record times at every ultra-marathon distance. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] wesley@yall.theatl.social 9 points 1 year ago

And speed and strength aren't even the only attributes needed for effective hunting in the first place. Seems to me that a variety of skills would be beneficial

[–] Plague_Doctor@lemmy.world 81 points 1 year ago (5 children)

The idea that 'males hunted because they were stronger, etc' was cope to rationalize the fact they are less reproductively valuable than females. Four males don't come back from a hunt, village mourns- Four females don't come the village dies.

[–] Dkarma@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'm willing to believe that men hunted more frequently for this reason alone. Women are simply too valuable. I wonder if this is the origin of a dowry as well. Compensation for the tribe or family losing the ability to expand.

[–] SeaJ@lemm.ee 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think you mean bride price. A dowry is something the woman's family gives to the husband's family.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Men were more expendable but the more important issue at hand was continued survival of the tribe. If we don't have children we die out in 20-40 years. If we don't have food, we die out in 2-4 weeks. If a woman was physically capable, she was likely going to be sent out on a hunt, more so if her family were hunters too.

[–] Klear@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're willing to believe that despite complete lack of any evidence for that?

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] WhiteHawk@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Why would anyone need to cope with the value of individuals in pre-civilization society? These things are not relevant anymore, an individual's value to society is mostly determined through productivity and wealth now.

[–] rambaroo@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Never met an incel huh? If you aren't wealthy or productive then you need to make up a reason for why you have value to society, assuming you buy into the idea of assigning value to life in the first place - which lots of people do.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Right? It's bullshit. The comment is half right, but the part about "cope" and rationalization is psuedo-scientific projection.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] snek@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

If this village is made up of 8 people, then 4 male hunters not returning also means the village dies.

You need...err...two to tango.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is an incredibly simplistic take. Yes, if all the men die and none of the women are pregnant and they don't survive until some of the children reach sexual maturity (why would there be no children before the men went out to hunt?) then yes, the tribe would die. Doubtless small groups died out this way on occasion, among others. None of that has any bearing on fewer men being needed to keep a population growing because it does, in fact, take only two to tango, and both men and women can tango with multiple partners.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] ilovesatan@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If this is true wouldn't that be a reason for a village to send only the men on hunts?

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] crocat@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think this might be the reason for the strength disparity. Tasks that require strong people tend to be more dangerous but a sensible tribe leader would send the strongest to do these tasks whether they are male or female. A tribe where the strength balance leans female will grow slower than a tribe where there is equal distribution which will grow slower than one with male balance. This selection effect would cause evolution in that direction.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] rusty_spoon@lemmy.ml 59 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This explains why my legs get tired when my wife drags me out shopping...

[–] MoodyRaincloud@feddit.nl 16 points 1 year ago

I'm a natural sprinter. Very fast on short distances. But the endless slog from one shop to the next, with no respite, no idea when it will end. When we come home I'm dead tired and empty. She's dead tired and full.

[–] i_have_no_enemies@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

“Man the Hunter has dominated the study of human evolution for nearly half a century & pervaded popular culture. [But] it was the arrival of agriculture that led to rigid gendered roles & economic inequality. Hunting belonged to everyone.”

[–] joystick@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So... What's the evidence supporting this? It sure seems like men dominate running and are way more interested in hunting sports today.

[–] Murvel@lemm.ee 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There is no evidence, it's simply an opinion piece. Good lord the article does not even list sources, so even if it claims to have supporting evidence, you cannot follow up on it. This just stinks...

And Scientific American, really?

[–] Arthur_Leywin@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Where's that damn summary bot

[–] TheBestUsername@lemmy.world 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Here's a summary:

The article "The Theory That Men Evolved to Hunt and Women Evolved to Gather Is Wrong" challenges the long-held assumption that men were the primary hunters and women were the primary gatherers in our evolutionary past. This assumption, often referred to as the "Man the Hunter" hypothesis, has been deeply ingrained in popular culture and scientific discourse.

However, mounting evidence from various fields, including anthropology, archaeology, and exercise physiology, suggests that this simplistic division of labor is inaccurate. The article highlights several key points that contradict the traditional view:

  1. Women are physiologically well-suited for endurance activities, including hunting, due to their higher aerobic capacity and fat utilization efficiency.

  2. There is a growing body of evidence from archaeological sites and ethnographic studies that indicates women actively participated in hunting in various societies across different time periods and cultural contexts.

  3. The assumption that women's childcare responsibilities limited their hunting activities is challenged by observations of women hunting with their children in present-day hunter-gatherer communities.

In conclusion, the article argues that the "Man the Hunter" hypothesis is no longer supported by the available evidence and that a more nuanced understanding of gender roles in human evolution is necessary. Women played a more significant role in hunting than previously thought, and their contributions were essential for the survival and success of our ancestral populations.

[–] feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeah also I'm really good at gathering

[–] zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I'm good at gathering mass

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] Sentau@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It is a very long article and the summary will not be able to properly catch the essence of it. Just take some time and read the article it is worth the read

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] ilovesatan@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I grew up in the rural southern US. I can confirm that women like to hunt. Maybe not as much as the dudes, but enough that I wouldn't call it niche. I could totally see a society which relied on subsistence hunting have a lot of women in hunter role.

[–] arefx@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago

I live in New York and even here it's not uncommon for women to also hunt lol. I'd say it's mostly men but it's not taboo at all for women

[–] Fades@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Really should not be a surprise to anyone. The patriarchy has done serious damage over the many many past and present generations

[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 32 points 1 year ago

To anyone who studied anthropology in even an amateur manner, this male/female division of labor never made any damn sense. It’s echoed in so many hominid and pre-hominid species, and it’s even seen an echoes in society today. Men and women, males and females, and all monkey and ape-descendant species share these tasks.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] Tedesche@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'll wait until there's greater consensus in the field. These papers reek of scientists who have strong political motivations to find the answers they seek, and I'm not expert enough to critique their work.

[–] lemmie689@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 1 year ago

It's been a long time since I've been in Anthropology class, but this isn't something we were taught academically. Cultural Anthro is all theory-based, academics get paid to publish theory arguments. Imo, biologically, women carried babies, men didn't, there would have been associated cultural roles to accomodate this as successfully as possible. The idea that it's popular theory this meant men hunted and women gathered is just sensationalist. It's niether competely wrong nor completely right. There are elements of both throughout many cultures. It's the idea that it's all or nothing is wrong.

[–] MechanicalJester@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Okay, but it's not just size and strength. Women have better color discrimination, better landmark sense. Men have better time/speed sense. While pregnant the long gestational period makes the woman more at risk.

Women certainly can hunt, men can certainly harvest berries, but these other traits came about for reasons. If we were wrong as to why, that doesn't change the differences.

[–] julietOscarEcho@sh.itjust.works 47 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Colour discrimination sounds super important to finding camouflaged prey animals and landmark sense sounds super important to wide ranging and unpredictable hunts. I dunno dude, unless you can cite experts in exolutionary biology supporting that inference, I'm going to say you're taking out of your arse.

[–] Kase@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Landmark sense sounds just as important to hunting as gathering too lol. What even is landmark sense, anyway? Is it a real thing separate from just, like, short-term memory or whatever?

[–] Poem_for_your_sprog@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Women are equipped with a stowable over the horizon radar which is used for locating tall landmarks at long distances to triangulate a location.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] 5too@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

I'm remembering that color blindness is actually really good at bypassing certain kinds of camouflage too. Which sounds like the two would pair well together in hunting parties.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›