this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2023
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[–] someguy3@lemmy.world 126 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

assumed evolution was acting primarily on men, and women were merely passive beneficiaries of both the meat supply and evolutionary progress.

He was superimposing the idea of male superiority through hunting onto the Ainu and into the past.

This fixation on male superiority was a sign of the times not just in academia but in society at large.''

At that time, the conventional wisdom was that women were incapable of completing such a physically demanding task

Scholars following Man the Hunter dogma relied on this belief in women's limited physical capacities

Today these biased assumptions persist in both the scientific literature and the public consciousness.

"Powers of Estrogen" infographic.

This is quite the charged language and I'm not even halfway through. Throw in a bunch of other stuff about the Boston marathon and gender presentation in movies, yeah this isn't that good of an article.

Before I'm downvoted into oblivion, we probably all took part in hunting. They've found the speed differences in running between ages and gender are not extreme, so we likely all went out running and hunting together. But men probably took on the more dangerous and physical aspects, but everyone with a spear is a more capable unit.

[–] EatATaco@lemm.ee 30 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I read most of it, not bothering with full paragraphs when I could see the idea at the beginning, and from what I saw it doesn't get any better.

It points out that the only physical sport activity they women excel at is ultra marathons. it then goes on to day that flexibility when it comes to family roles was important for survival. And this I absolutely agree with and it is certainly the case that women can hunt too.

But the author just seemingly completely ignores the argument that women can still fill the role, even if there is some kind of specialization that makes one sex generally better at one task then the other. The fact that we are different almost certainly means this is the case.

[–] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 6 points 10 months ago (3 children)

the only physical sport activity they women excel at is ultra marathons

And men still have much better record times at every ultra-marathon distance. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

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[–] wesley@yall.theatl.social 9 points 10 months ago

And speed and strength aren't even the only attributes needed for effective hunting in the first place. Seems to me that a variety of skills would be beneficial

[–] Plague_Doctor@lemmy.world 81 points 10 months ago (5 children)

The idea that 'males hunted because they were stronger, etc' was cope to rationalize the fact they are less reproductively valuable than females. Four males don't come back from a hunt, village mourns- Four females don't come the village dies.

[–] Dkarma@lemmy.world 33 points 10 months ago (3 children)

I'm willing to believe that men hunted more frequently for this reason alone. Women are simply too valuable. I wonder if this is the origin of a dowry as well. Compensation for the tribe or family losing the ability to expand.

[–] SeaJ@lemm.ee 22 points 10 months ago (2 children)

I think you mean bride price. A dowry is something the woman's family gives to the husband's family.

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[–] Rakonat@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Men were more expendable but the more important issue at hand was continued survival of the tribe. If we don't have children we die out in 20-40 years. If we don't have food, we die out in 2-4 weeks. If a woman was physically capable, she was likely going to be sent out on a hunt, more so if her family were hunters too.

[–] Klear@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You're willing to believe that despite complete lack of any evidence for that?

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[–] WhiteHawk@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago (3 children)

Why would anyone need to cope with the value of individuals in pre-civilization society? These things are not relevant anymore, an individual's value to society is mostly determined through productivity and wealth now.

[–] rambaroo@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

Never met an incel huh? If you aren't wealthy or productive then you need to make up a reason for why you have value to society, assuming you buy into the idea of assigning value to life in the first place - which lots of people do.

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[–] TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id 6 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Right? It's bullshit. The comment is half right, but the part about "cope" and rationalization is psuedo-scientific projection.

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[–] snek@lemmy.world 18 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (6 children)

If this village is made up of 8 people, then 4 male hunters not returning also means the village dies.

You need...err...two to tango.

[–] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This is an incredibly simplistic take. Yes, if all the men die and none of the women are pregnant and they don't survive until some of the children reach sexual maturity (why would there be no children before the men went out to hunt?) then yes, the tribe would die. Doubtless small groups died out this way on occasion, among others. None of that has any bearing on fewer men being needed to keep a population growing because it does, in fact, take only two to tango, and both men and women can tango with multiple partners.

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[–] ilovesatan@lemmy.world 12 points 10 months ago (2 children)

If this is true wouldn't that be a reason for a village to send only the men on hunts?

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[–] crocat@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I think this might be the reason for the strength disparity. Tasks that require strong people tend to be more dangerous but a sensible tribe leader would send the strongest to do these tasks whether they are male or female. A tribe where the strength balance leans female will grow slower than a tribe where there is equal distribution which will grow slower than one with male balance. This selection effect would cause evolution in that direction.

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[–] rusty_spoon@lemmy.ml 59 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This explains why my legs get tired when my wife drags me out shopping...

[–] MoodyRaincloud@feddit.nl 16 points 10 months ago

I'm a natural sprinter. Very fast on short distances. But the endless slog from one shop to the next, with no respite, no idea when it will end. When we come home I'm dead tired and empty. She's dead tired and full.

[–] i_have_no_enemies@lemmy.world 51 points 10 months ago

“Man the Hunter has dominated the study of human evolution for nearly half a century & pervaded popular culture. [But] it was the arrival of agriculture that led to rigid gendered roles & economic inequality. Hunting belonged to everyone.”

[–] joystick@lemmy.world 35 points 10 months ago (1 children)

So... What's the evidence supporting this? It sure seems like men dominate running and are way more interested in hunting sports today.

[–] Murvel@lemm.ee 18 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

There is no evidence, it's simply an opinion piece. Good lord the article does not even list sources, so even if it claims to have supporting evidence, you cannot follow up on it. This just stinks...

And Scientific American, really?

[–] Arthur_Leywin@lemmy.world 31 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Where's that damn summary bot

[–] TheBestUsername@lemmy.world 27 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Here's a summary:

The article "The Theory That Men Evolved to Hunt and Women Evolved to Gather Is Wrong" challenges the long-held assumption that men were the primary hunters and women were the primary gatherers in our evolutionary past. This assumption, often referred to as the "Man the Hunter" hypothesis, has been deeply ingrained in popular culture and scientific discourse.

However, mounting evidence from various fields, including anthropology, archaeology, and exercise physiology, suggests that this simplistic division of labor is inaccurate. The article highlights several key points that contradict the traditional view:

  1. Women are physiologically well-suited for endurance activities, including hunting, due to their higher aerobic capacity and fat utilization efficiency.

  2. There is a growing body of evidence from archaeological sites and ethnographic studies that indicates women actively participated in hunting in various societies across different time periods and cultural contexts.

  3. The assumption that women's childcare responsibilities limited their hunting activities is challenged by observations of women hunting with their children in present-day hunter-gatherer communities.

In conclusion, the article argues that the "Man the Hunter" hypothesis is no longer supported by the available evidence and that a more nuanced understanding of gender roles in human evolution is necessary. Women played a more significant role in hunting than previously thought, and their contributions were essential for the survival and success of our ancestral populations.

[–] feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Yeah also I'm really good at gathering

[–] zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'm good at gathering mass

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[–] Sentau@feddit.de 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

It is a very long article and the summary will not be able to properly catch the essence of it. Just take some time and read the article it is worth the read

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[–] ilovesatan@lemmy.world 22 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I grew up in the rural southern US. I can confirm that women like to hunt. Maybe not as much as the dudes, but enough that I wouldn't call it niche. I could totally see a society which relied on subsistence hunting have a lot of women in hunter role.

[–] arefx@lemmy.ml 11 points 10 months ago

I live in New York and even here it's not uncommon for women to also hunt lol. I'd say it's mostly men but it's not taboo at all for women

[–] Fades@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago (6 children)

Really should not be a surprise to anyone. The patriarchy has done serious damage over the many many past and present generations

[–] gregorum@lemm.ee 32 points 10 months ago

To anyone who studied anthropology in even an amateur manner, this male/female division of labor never made any damn sense. It’s echoed in so many hominid and pre-hominid species, and it’s even seen an echoes in society today. Men and women, males and females, and all monkey and ape-descendant species share these tasks.

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[–] Tedesche@lemmy.world 13 points 10 months ago (1 children)

I'll wait until there's greater consensus in the field. These papers reek of scientists who have strong political motivations to find the answers they seek, and I'm not expert enough to critique their work.

[–] lemmie689@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 10 months ago

It's been a long time since I've been in Anthropology class, but this isn't something we were taught academically. Cultural Anthro is all theory-based, academics get paid to publish theory arguments. Imo, biologically, women carried babies, men didn't, there would have been associated cultural roles to accomodate this as successfully as possible. The idea that it's popular theory this meant men hunted and women gathered is just sensationalist. It's niether competely wrong nor completely right. There are elements of both throughout many cultures. It's the idea that it's all or nothing is wrong.

[–] MechanicalJester@lemm.ee 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Okay, but it's not just size and strength. Women have better color discrimination, better landmark sense. Men have better time/speed sense. While pregnant the long gestational period makes the woman more at risk.

Women certainly can hunt, men can certainly harvest berries, but these other traits came about for reasons. If we were wrong as to why, that doesn't change the differences.

[–] julietOscarEcho@sh.itjust.works 47 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

Colour discrimination sounds super important to finding camouflaged prey animals and landmark sense sounds super important to wide ranging and unpredictable hunts. I dunno dude, unless you can cite experts in exolutionary biology supporting that inference, I'm going to say you're taking out of your arse.

[–] Kase@lemmy.world 25 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Landmark sense sounds just as important to hunting as gathering too lol. What even is landmark sense, anyway? Is it a real thing separate from just, like, short-term memory or whatever?

[–] Poem_for_your_sprog@lemmy.world 10 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Women are equipped with a stowable over the horizon radar which is used for locating tall landmarks at long distances to triangulate a location.

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[–] 5too@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

I'm remembering that color blindness is actually really good at bypassing certain kinds of camouflage too. Which sounds like the two would pair well together in hunting parties.

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