this post was submitted on 18 Nov 2023
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[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 57 points 1 year ago (19 children)

Do y'all actually pronounce dragon with a j sound? How???

[–] force@lemmy.world 52 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

English phonology, American English dialects' (and other dialects') /r/ is usually pronounced retracted, post-alveolar/pre-palatal (usually bunched/molar), transcribed something like [ɹ̠ᶹ], so it causes alveolar consonants in the same cluster to retract/palatalize, usually into a post-alveolar affricate ([d͡ʒ] – the "j" sound for voiced stop /d/, [t͡ʃ] – the "ch" sound for voiceless stop /t/, [ʃ] – the "sh" sound for voiceless fricative /s/). The term would be assimilation (of place of articulation).

"Dragon" /dræ.gən/ -> [dɹ̠æ.ɡɪ̈n] -> [d̠ʒɹ̠æ.ɡ(ɪ̈)n]

You can see the same thing with words like "tree" /tri/ -> [t̠ʃɹ̠i] or even "street" /strit/ -> [ʃt̠ɹ̠it]

Would explain simpler but can't, break ends now, just know its because consonant pronounced in different place in mouth is conforming to being pronounced in the same place in mouth as other consonant that is right beside it (like with "in-" vs "im-", "impractical", which notably isn't "inpractical", or "incandescent" which notably isn't "imcandascent", or "indecisive" etc. etc.)

[–] glibg10b@lemmy.ml 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This explanation makes me feel stupid

[–] Stoneykins@mander.xyz 22 points 1 year ago (13 children)

They made almost no attempt to put it in layman's terms, which means as an explanation it is not very helpful unless you already know enough about the topic to not need to ask about it in the first place. Correct and unhelpful. But I guess they were busy.

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[–] starman2112@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Okay, I think I get it. When I say "dr-" the r is made with the tip of my tongue just behind my front teeth, but when I say "jr-" (like in badger), the r is made with the middle of my tounge in the middle of my mouth. Neat!

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[–] yamapikariya@lemmyfi.com 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] shukufuku@lemmy.ml 42 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] ickplant@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] anonymoose@lemmy.ca 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)
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[–] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago (14 children)

How I wish for the day English decides to upend everything and go phonetic with a truncated alphabet and word modernization.

We'd then go to World Standard Time. It's 13:00 everywhere, not just in specific time zones. We then go to a Year 12023 Human Era International Fixed calendar.

[–] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm with you for the alphabet and human era, but what's the thing about timezones? We'd still have to keep track of each area's normal waking/business hours, but it'd be less standardized and harder to remember unless there's something I'm missing.

[–] blanketswithsmallpox@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The time zone thing means if the time on your clock reads 00:00 hours, it's 00:00 hours everywhere.

That means if I say I have a meeting at 14:00 with someone in China while I live in the USA, there's no conversion. It's 14:00 everywhere. Every clock reads the same. I know when to be on the call.

All it does is change what time people arbitrarily 'Get up', 'Fall asleep', 'start school' etc.

Say we arbitrarily say 00:00 is what 'midnight' would be in Britain at the Prime Meridian.

That means nothing really changes for Britain. But in Central Time USA, 00:00 means it's when we're just starting dinner.

No daylight savings times anywhere. Work places can set their own work times however they want. Nobody gets confused about having to convert time to different time zones for logistics which is the biggest benefit. If the ISS says it'll be over New York City at 13:37, I'll know exactly when to turn on my HAM radio.

I'd wake up at 13:00, get breakfast, be into work at 14:00. Get home at 22:00, etc.

[–] c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You've literally just shifted the problem, those two businessmen now have to both figure out what hour their daily cycle starts on, to assess if they will be free or not during the time. The idea of "business hours" would just be "so what hours on the 24h clock are you 'at work' at?'"

Same problem, different calculation.

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[–] usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There'd still be "timezones" where the divisions on what times everyone lives by are drawn, right? Like, in this state business hours are 14:00 to 22:00, and over at this other place it's 00:00 to 08:00. For simplicity and commerce those boundaries would likely look very much like timezones...

You'll still need to convert to the local time like we do now in order to know what part of the day that time is, but instead of doing that conversion once, you'll then you do it for all sorts of things and keep track of all the different times everything is in that other place too. Currently, you can look up the time it is somewhere (or add/subtract a number of hours if you're old-school) and when you see it's 8am, you know it's morning there. If there are no timezones, knowing it's 8am doesn't actually tell you anything anymore.

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[–] CoggyMcFee@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (18 children)

Plus a bunch of people would have the day turn over into the next day in the middle of the work day, which would be pretty inconvenient.

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[–] funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 year ago (6 children)

ˈwʊdnt ɪt biː ˈbɛtə ʤʌst tuː juːz aɪ-piː-eɪ fɔːr ɔːl ˈlæŋɡwɪʤɪz ðɛn?

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[–] LemmyKnowsBest@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Hey smack me if you said 'dragon" and " jragon" out loud.

[–] Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

I'm just gonna give you a small flick on the ear since I tried but am physically unable to pronounce "jragon".

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[–] TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 19 points 1 year ago

The spelling of someone who's breathing in the chemicals

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago (6 children)

What accent is this? In mine the D is hard and it sounds different

[–] otp@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I believe it's called affrication -- changing a stop to a fricative.

T can become "ch", and d can become a "j" sound.

This can happen in some North American accents when you have a T or D followed by an r or a y sound.

Train might sound like Chrain*, Drain might sound like Jrain.

My favourite is "Tuesday", where some people add a y before the "oo" sound, and it becomes "Chewsday". Or "Chewsdi" if they shorten the "day" to "dee".

The "y" before "oo" can also happen in words like news and tube, giving us a potential for "Chyoob" instead of "tube".

I've found that t to ch before r is more common among Gen X and younger, and Boomers tend to only make the change before y. But Gen X and younger tend to not have the y in words like "tube", so that comes up less often.

D to J before r seems to be pretty common in all ages.

Getting people to hear the difference can be hard, especially if they're self conscious about it. If you can get someone to say "Dane" and "Drain" (without saying the words yourself), then you can probably hear the difference...as long as they don't know that you're listening for a dr => jr sound change. Most people, even those who make tr => chr and dr => jr naturally are still capable of producing pure "tr" and "dr" if they try.

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[–] Konstant@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Jragon deez nuts on your face.

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[–] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

English language doesn't have an alphabet - change my mind (especially british, but american only made one step in the right direction and then stopped)

[–] mcmoor@bookwormstory.social 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

But it's really not a fun fact

[–] Cosmicomical@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Exactly! That's the most appropriate description!

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[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago
[–] Resol@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I don't know why I can actually tell the difference phonetically between "dragon" and "jragon", maybe I just pronounce things weirdly.

[–] OutlierBlue@lemmy.ca 32 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think it's because d and j are different letters and are pronounced different.

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[–] sigh@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago
[–] TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago (6 children)

J is often /d3/ in English so yea there's a D

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[–] tiny_electron@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Shut up and pass the pasghetti.

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[–] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 8 points 1 year ago

Not in my accent.

It wasn't the dropping, it was the alcohol.

[–] hiramfromthechi@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

In high school, I wrote a play for my creative writing class where I named the main character Jrue—named after Jrue Holiday, one of my favorite basketball players.

I remember the teacher got a kick out of it.

[–] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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[–] WereCat@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
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