Welcome to the trolley problem.
this post was submitted on 08 Aug 2023
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I always always hated that problem. It is so contrived. Have you seen trolleys? They are freaken slow and full of safeties. Also the workers would have locked out the line.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_Omelas
Basically the plot of this story. It poses the issue of how much we value society over the individual, and if that is good or not. Would you want to live in a world that depended on the the torture of a single person. You then could extrapolate that out to societies in the real world, US and chattel slavery. the west and the use of sweat shop labor for cheap products, the Emirates and their use of migrants as indentured servants. Even tipped wages for servers in the USA, the gig economy, and things like medical residencies could be considered a minor version of Omelas. As humans, we often tolerate the abuse or exploitation of others for our own benefit, or even just out of ignorance and inaction.
A great story that illustrates this question really well. It is by Ursula K. Le Guin, written in 1973, if anyone is wondering.
Ursula K. Le Guin
So pissed that she is not much more famous. Earthsea is one of the great fantasy stories that people tend to forget.
It always strikes me how few female sci-fi and fantasy writers I've read. I've tried amending that mistake over the last couple of years but it's not easy, especially when looking for books translated into more obscure languages.
Now that you say it - her sci-fi is also up there with the best. Did you find any other interesting female sci-fi authors?
Yes! Becky Chambers is a really interesting one. Her series Wayfarers is really different to most stuff I've read.
I also read Octavia E. Butler's Kindred, which was amazing. Wholeheartedly recommend it.
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I mean, most Christians would say yes because that's the entire premise of the crucifixion.
This interpretation leaves out the most important part of the crucifixion story: Jesus willingly took on the world's sins out of love. So whether or not most Christians would say yes depends on if the one person being tortured has a choice in the matter, which is unspecified in the question.
I came to say the same thing. This is exactly what Christianity believes.
But of course, it was Jesus who gave himself willingly.
If he was forced to do that, it would've been reprehensible because he was the only truly innocent person who ever lived.
If that one innocent person agrees to it, I say yes. Otherwise, no.
No it’s not morally preferable. Fuck that world that requires human sacrifice.
Just out of interest, what if we make it a (not-human) animal instead of a human? Or, what if we make it trillions of animals every year. What about a world that doesn't require it but still includes mass amounts of animal sacrifice unnecessarily? That's the world we're in right now 😂
Most peoples empathy differs from human to animal.
But it shouldn't. Our empathy with other humans all boils down to knowing their ability to suffer. And science today agrees, that most animals are able to suffer and feel pain just like us. We really should include them into our circle of moral consideration and thankfully more and more people already do
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Do you mean ultimate badass Talenel’Elin , Herald of War?
He. Did. Not. Break.
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I'll take a different approach here. Evolution does not care about your feelings.
If a species is unwilling to self-sacrifice for the greater good, and it comes up against an event that cannot be solved with selfishness, it goes extinct. Like in this scenario.
But evolution is a motherfucker, and evolution does not care about your feelings, the only thing that matters to evolution is reproductive success. So some people are going to be altruistic because that's better for the species because it makes it more survivable.
I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong, but the species that's going to survive is the one that's willing to self sacrifice for the greater good of the species. To increase reproductive success. And that's what's going to be left in the universe. Because evolution does not care. You either get with the program or you get out of the gene pool no other option
Evolution is not a good base for morals. We tried it out - was really bad.
Now hold on. How can we be certain? Maybe holocaust 2: electric boogaloo will be better
I'm in Germany, so not sure if allowed to answer.
Sure you can! Say it with me: "Eugenics and genocide aren't a fast track to an improved gene pool. Holocaust 2 is bad news bears."
Dang, I'm already marching on the street with a burning torch.
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I think it has happened numerous times already under the same pretense.
I am not sure if we are saved or not.
Nope. That's a world that's not worth saving.
Is it really though? Injustices happen all the time here. I want to agree with you but I'm struggling to come up with good justifications for it. Can you explain your thinking a little bit?
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I'd just walk away from Omelas.
A great story that illustrates this question really well. It is by Ursula K. Le Guin, written in 1973, if anyone is wondering.
An inherently flawed world maintaining its function through cannibalism will inevitably devour itself into nonexistence. Why prolong its suffering?
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Are you trying to make an arguement for Christianity?
Unfair to ask the question in the incomplete form.. The tortured person is you. Now answer
I would not do it, if somebody else does it - so be it.
"healthy unemployment rate"
That is many people's mentality, yes. It probably depends if you were the one being tortured or were close. Pain can be ignored if not directly felt, especially if it means whatever you think your survival entails.
I'm not comfortable with it, but I'm not comfortable with life either.
Come torture me
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