What do you all think about this? : Mirror

[–] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 4 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

although it's a true statement, I think borders should be abolished regardless, and that the more international mixing we have, the better the world we have

[–] TheKingBee@lemmy.world 2 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (1 children)

Exactly. The problem isn't the visa, it's the having a group of people you can just pay less and control more...

[–] IAmNorRealTakeYourMeds@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

honestly, shame on Bernie to use that framing, instead of pushing for more unions, which will actually solve the wage issue making hiring local talent as competitive as foreign without depressing anyone's wage.

[–] njm1314@lemmy.world 0 points 9 hours ago

I think that's really shitty title is what I think OP. Real engagement type garbage title.

[–] 000@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 22 hours ago

As someone who was basically an indentured labourer (not in US), this is 100% true.

But at the same time, it was my opportunity to get out of my country. I traded a couple of years of light slavery in exchange for a potentially higher level of freedom later.

I got lucky, though, and I managed to get a good job later. Not everyone would be lucky. Some of my friends are still working in the company that brought me in (Infosys).

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 33 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Is this not obvious to everyone?

Hiring someone on this kind of visa puts them under your boot. They can't ask for much or make waves without risking their whole life being upturned. If a citizen gets fired that sucks, but if you're on a work visa you might have to leave the country (breaking your lease, leaving your partner, etc). I think you get 60 days. Given how bad the job market is, that's not very long to find a new job. Also given how ICE is abducting people and sending them to a death camp, people are extra cautious.

It's similar to how coupling health insurance to employment gives the employer extra power against labor. Are you really going to make a big deal about your boss pressuring you to work unpaid overtime when getting fired means you lose access to your life saving medicine?

[–] shawn1122@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

For context, every wealthy nation has work visas like this. It is not unique to H1bs. Dubai was essentially built on this framework with the added aspect of confiscating passports.

It can be used well in some cases, especially in attracting a workforce to an underserved area. For example, immigrant doctors and nurses make a up a huge proportion of the hospital workforce throughout the US (upwards of 1 in 3 in some urban areas) but even moreso in rural areas.

The problem is when it's misused, especially in the tech sector.

[–] whotookkarl@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

People who get kicked out of the country if they lose their job usually don't form unions or protest for fair pay or worker rights

[–] manicdave@feddit.uk 18 points 1 day ago

He's right. It doesn't mean you hate foreigners to understand why bosses would prefer to hire someone with less rights and who needs less money to raise their family through remittances.

[–] cubism_pitta@lemmy.world 35 points 2 days ago

A lot of the Tech related H-1Bs go to Consulting firms.

I have nothing negative to say about people on H-1Bs they work very hard and are working the hand they are dealt just like you and me.

The argument that talent can not be found within the US though is completely bogus.

[–] ordinarylove@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 1 day ago

fuck every border that's what i think

[–] Ledivin@lemmy.world 20 points 2 days ago

It's both, really. We could easily get the best and the brightest by offering better pay, but why sacrifice anything when you can have both?

[–] Booboofinget@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

It tracks. There is nothing a multi-million dollar company won't do to screw its workers so it can give their shareholders a bigger profit.

[–] tane69@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago (1 children)

He’s right

[+] Fizz@lemmy.nz -13 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Hes completely wrong. https://www.h1bdata.org/

[–] NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz 15 points 1 day ago

A random example using data from this link:

Apple Inc. employs 4116 H1B holders for "Software Develolment Applications" with an average salary of $136,794

Looking at Glassdoor the average salary for that position (from 6630 salaries in the US) is $215,000 - $330,000

[–] burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

dropdown menus?! explain to me!

[+] Fizz@lemmy.nz -10 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I dont know why Bernie has flipped and is now parroting the immigrants stealing jobs meme. We dont have to guess we can easily look at the h1b rates and see they aren't replacing Americans with low wages. The h1b wages are very high across the different industries and these industries havent had wage drops due to h1b workers coming over.

[–] burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 14 points 2 days ago (1 children)

that is not what sanders is saying

[+] Fizz@lemmy.nz -6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

How is saying "replacing good paying american jobs with low wage indentured servants from abroad" not exactly that? I agree with Bernie on the servant part because of the visa restrictions but they're paid well enough and they're skilled enough that I dont feel sorry for them as they've got plenty of prospects for where to live.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Because the h1b visas are designed to lock in the person by sponsoring the h1b. So the company can basically pay you less than what the job is worth and you can't say shit about it or they pull your h1b sponsorship and you get ejected from the country. It's %100 indentured servitude.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz -3 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Yeah I sort of agree with the lockin part but I wouldnt use the harsh term indentured servitude became theyre coming over with the expectation its a working visa not a permanent visa.

But that wasn't tbe part i cared about. I care that the stats show the companies are still paying high salaries and the average pay for the non h1b workers is still going up because the demand for skilled workers is still high. Bernie is completely wrong to claim otherwise and he should know better.

[–] Ledivin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Can you define indentured servitude for me

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 1 points 4 hours ago

An individual forced to work without pay for a contracted period.

Theyre on a working visa and can return home whenever they want. They can switch employers whenever they want. They aren't slaves ffs.

[–] SupraMario@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

That's the issue. Their salaries are usually 50% of what they're worth to citizens. If a company has to pay a citizen 300k but can get an h1b for 150k then they're gonna go for the h1b even if they're the weaker candidate. It drives down salaries.

[–] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think the problem you're running into is that your definition of "low wage" isn't in reference to their applied fields. I don't think it's right to assume that people are going to compare a pilot's low wage to someone doing manual labor.

The point he is making is that corporations aren't hiring people under h1b because there's a lack of skilled labour. They're hiring people under h1b because they help drive down labour costs, or they don't want to absorb the cost of training new skilled labour.

If it were really because there was a lack of skilled labour, and demand was so high, then there shouldn't be a gap in pay between H1b and local skilled labour. If we want the best and brightest from everywhere, why are we paying the best and brightest lower than the industry standard?

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 1 points 4 hours ago

H1b program doesnt hire that many workers first of all its a tiny fraction of workers. Secondly employers need to apply for the visa for the position before they can search overseas. If thats getting approved then there isnt the local talent to fill those roles. This doesnt drive down the local labour costs because its still easier to hire locally than import labour via h1b system.

There is evidence I found suggests the h1b workers are paid 15-30% below market and that should be enforced better. But its still a win win for all parties, employer fills their role, employee gets a high paying job.

Out of all the things to pearl clutch over I think this one is just bad in every regard. Especially the people in here calling it indentured servitude. Its could be more generous to the foreign workers but ultimately its fine and doesnt seem to be harming wages or exploiting and enslaving foreign workers.

[–] Ledivin@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We dont have to guess we can easily look at the h1b rates and see they aren't replacing Americans with low wages.

The site you linked very explicitly disagrees with you. Compare those h1b salaries with average salaries at the companies/positions they're working for.

The h1b wages are very high across the different industries

Nobody has ever claimed they get paid minimum wage or something. Doesn't change the fact that they are cheaper than non-h1b workers virtually 100% of the time.

[–] Fizz@lemmy.nz 1 points 4 hours ago

I dont think it disagrees with me. The jobs being replaced were not able to be filled by local workers.

H1b workers are cheaper for a variety of reasons. Once local worker market is exhausted and employers search overseas the demand supply equation changes, the US has the highest paying jobs generally so what is a 15-30% before rate salary in the us is a high salary overses. There is the clause that these workers must be paid within the averages of their position and there are examples of companies breaking that. Thats an enforcement issue and not reflective of the program.

I don't think Bernie can make the claim that h1b program steals American jobs without also making the claim that low skill immigrants steal American jobs and I dont think he'd make that claim. The h1b at least has conditions on finding local talent first.

I havent been able to find good stats to Compare h1b salaries vs the roles and I dont find glassdoor to be reliable. I'd guess that for dev work there is probably a ton of the core devs working locally on big salaries and the h1b workers are being brought on as temps for specific projects so their salaries are below the average for what that company pays for devs overall.

[–] BB84@mander.xyz 2 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Most "leftist" American politician says: Immigrants are taking your good-paying American jobs!!!

[–] Turret3857@infosec.pub 17 points 1 day ago

pretty sure it says clear as day "large corporations aren't hiring you because immigrants are cheaper and they shouldnt be"

[–] Krauerking@lemy.lol 8 points 1 day ago

Anyone with the ability to see that these systems are in place to further abuse the average worker and exploit emotions:
These systems have a history of and active effect of exploiting and abusing the average worker and immigrant.

[–] Jackcooper@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago

The world (8 billion people) has more talent than when we keep it to the US (350 million people). We should want to import high level talent.

[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago

I don't think that's what Bush was thinking in 1990 when he split H1, nor what Truman was thinking when he made it.

In fact, with the current state of unemployment and skilled workers, the US needs as many educated/skilled people migrating as fast as possible, but I think it's too late.

/r/50501 Mirror