this post was submitted on 24 Feb 2025
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[–] dditty@lemm.ee 127 points 1 week ago

Did I ask for this feature? No. But I do think it's neat!

[–] MeatsOfRage@lemmy.world 68 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

What's the value here? This is based on the developer saying so and there's no obligation to do so. Black Ops 6 is loaded with Gen AI, the loading screens are obviously Mid Journey like and some of the actors have been replaced by digital performances which was in the news. They won't get tagged here for AI because it's not in the description.

So basically this is going to just have people filtering out devs who are honest and realistically that'll just be a few indie devs who had to use these tools because they're a one man team that can't afford artists.

I think we have to face the facts. Every game is going to be using these tools going forward. If you run a large studio and say no one use AI I bet you your artists are still speeding up making base textures. Your music guy is generating some starter melodies. Your writers are drafting up some filler to pad out the supplementary text.

These tools are as ubiquitous as photoshop (which has had content aware fill all the way back to CS-fucking-5) and unreal engine now (which has added it's own AI features). The idea that's there's only a handful of shady individuals and mega-corps using these tools is naive.

[–] hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world 37 points 1 week ago

Iirc there was an obligation on steam to disclose AI use as well as the extent. Might be wrong though.

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[–] BroBot9000@lemmy.world 40 points 1 week ago (9 children)

Good! Fuck the corporate slop. Justifying the use of Ai only in the name of “efficiency” is pathetic and capitalist. Pay artists a proper wage and give them the time needed to apply their craft.

No artist needs generative “Ai” to create. Only capitalist need it to produce more slop.

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[–] Gladaed@feddit.org 25 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

This is just overly broad. If I use a LLM to aid me in debugging doesn't mean the game is tainted.

I guess the issue is the wording of the statement and not the tag itself.

The line between using Gen AI as a tool and and putting unfiltered output out there is very blurry.

[–] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 27 points 1 week ago

SteamDB is a third-party service, not affiliated with Valve.

[–] BigPotato@lemmy.world 21 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Still, it gives consumers the choice. If you choose not to consume diamonds due to the whole diamond thing, that's fine even though synthetics exist.

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[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (16 children)

I'm a one man Indie making a game. It's a management/strategy game and I want to add some depth to some of the pawns you control in the game by having a portrait for each and actual voices saying things and there are quite a lot of possible such pawns so that means quite lot of portraits and voices saying lines.

If I use generative AI I can do it at the cost of my time and some electricity for my PC, if I don't it would cost $$$ so wouldn't be able to have those elements because that's not just one or two portraits and voices.

Apparently if I use AI for it that makes me and my micro-company a big bad corporation.

[–] Doug7070@lemmy.world 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I would much rather play a game with text-only dialog and limited art assets than a game with AI generated narration or visual assets.

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com -2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Whilst for my project AI Gen was only ever an idea for a nice to have which is not important for game-play, I'm pretty sure that there will be projects out there being done by tiny Indies which aren't financially feasible without AI Gen because those operations are not well funded and can't afford to pay for lots of manpower.

In game-making, generation tools (not necessarily AI) even the field between Indies and AAA game makers (which is why so many Indie titles in this latest blossoming of Indie Game-Making have procedurally generated worlds/levels whilst the AAA titles almost invariably have massive hand-crafted worlds/levels) but until AI Gen the unassailable advantage in favor of the AAA makers was in the finishing touches - for example, it has long been possible to use procedural voice generation, it just doesn't sound as good as the stuff done with ML (unless you're making a game about robots were a robotic voice does sound great) - since one can only go so far with procedural generation so in more real-world-related domains (voice being a great example) procedural generation is usually shy of "good enough" whilst both AI Gen and professional human crafted content is beyond it even if the former is IMHO generally not as good as the latter.

In gatekeeping a certain level of quality to only things that can be done by those who can afford to hire large teams, because you refuse to accept games made with the kind of tools that most benefit the smaller game makers, you're basically supporting what's best for the bigger companies, unless the only kind of games you buy are "text-only dialog and limited art assets" games made by Indies with small budgets (in which case I'll take my hat off to you for being Principled in a consistent way) and not the more glitzy stuff that only bigger operations can afford to make without AI Gen.

Merely being against the kind of tools that most benefit small operations and then turning around and mostly buying the work from the most massive of operations because it has a better quality (since they have the economies of scale and revenues to afford real human craftsmanship) wouldn't actually be a consistent principled stand IMHO.

In the game making world, gatekeeping AI Gen use outright "just because" is a great way to keep the playing field tilted in favor of the likes of EA.

[–] Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 6 days ago

Except AAA studios also generate their open worlds and then sloppily (albeit manually) fill it with some content. Some studios do better than others here but you can clearly tell when most side quests are just all the same format.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 46 points 1 week ago (18 children)

If you're making it for profit, and using public resources (like GenAI trained on all the commons), then the game itself should be in the commons as well. (You can still sell it or request donations though) I support the GenAI in FOSS, but for-profit closed-source games should respect their own ideals (copyrights)

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[–] hlmw@lemm.ee 18 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Procedural generation though. Infinite replay value with actual graphics or voiceover? Fuck yeah. Great roguelites will use genai and that's awesome.

[–] Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

We'd still like the option to opt out of that mess, though. I'm not sold on the quality nor the ethics yet.

[–] dick_fineman@discuss.online 6 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The ethics based on Intellectual Property? Quality, sure, but ethics?

Full disclosure: I'm a geek from the days of newsgroups and Geocities. I watched the rise and fall of things like Napster. And I watched IP-law get more and more restrictive. But what is "intellectual property" really? You're effectively taking an idea and saying "this is mine, I made this first, therefore I own it".

Around 1996, when I was 12, I thought it'd be really cool to have a small laptop that laid flat and you could hold in your hands. The designs I drew up VERY closely resembled a Blackberry. Blackberry came out a few years later. If I had filed the right paperwork, at 12, should I be able to stop them? I sincerely doubt they were spying on the drawings I made on the back of my homework. Should you get to stifle innovation just because you had the first brainfart? I don't think so.

But okay, let's say you're only thinking about artistic works. Again, you're gonna have repetition. This came out in 1995. This came out in 2008.

So what's the issue with AI; it was trained on "copyrighted" material? K, well so were you. Are folks upset because creators didn't get paid every time an AI reviewed their copyrighted works? Well, are they similarly upset about folks who check a book or movie out of the library? Not so much...because that's normalized (though would NEVER go over in today's hyper-corporate nonsense world). Okay, so are folks upset that generative works can resemble the style or "essence" of the original work? Lol, see the Jill Sobule/Katy Perry comparison above, also consider "Fair Use" and the likely transformative nature involved as well.

This isn't an "ethics" issue...it's an issue of disrupting existing channels for corporate power within a world sliding more and more into a dystopia of corporate fascism.

[–] Lifter@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Who are you arguing against? What's this rant supposed to teach me? You don't like copyright? Fine, tell me with one sentence - not a wall of text.

[–] dick_fineman@discuss.online 0 points 2 days ago

....the person who said they weren't sold on the "ethics" of AI yet.

...?

As far as you go, I'm sorry you had to read. I know it's really difficult to read words. You must be very proud of yourself for having gotten this far. You're very special, right? And everyone else should cater everything they do to your level of comprehension. I get it. No worries, buddie! Hey look, I think there is some candy in the other room! You should go check!

[–] DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 days ago

They'll be great once the tech is better. Right now, genAI that appears in games is still pretty jank.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Honestly, I'd love that as well, but the problem is that you cannot connect GenAI generations to mechanics because they're too fuzzy. The best way to use them atm is to use them only for fluff. For example to automatically generate the art for encounters, or the flavor text for card games etc. But even then, they tend to converge into generic boring slop. Still I think there's some potential there for some creative roguelike devs to do GenAI fluff kinda OK.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago

I think you have to be clever with the usage of gen AI to get non-boring things, and just use it as one or multiple elements in a larger pipeline/computation graph. This is my intuition and not battle-tested.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Disagree. They can be connected to actual game mechanics. For instance, it's quite easy to ask an LLM to output something in json format:

{
  "name": "The Master of Evil",
   "hitpoints": 205,
   "class": "vampire,"
}

and so on. You might object that it could make mistakes here. Suppose the detectable error rate is 10% (I actually think it's lower from what I've played around with.) Rerunning it in the case of a such an error (e.g. malformed json, invalid class name, hit points exceeds bounds, etc.) reduces to 1%, then 0.1% etc., and in the end there can be a non-AI fallback just for certainty. Admittedly, the errors are not i.i.d., but still it should be pretty low. Many traditional procgen techniques, such as map generation, also use rejection sampling in this way, with even larger rejection rates than 10%.

[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It's easy to generate something as generic as that, not as easy to generate mechanics. And if you don't generate mechanics then you're only doing fluff like I said

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago

ah, I misunderstood by what you meant by "generate mechanics." My bad.

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