I've been waiting until after Christmas day to make this post, but some of our communities recently have had a lot of noise and upset over someone that uses neopronouns that most people are unfamiliar with.

So I want to make this clear. A persons pronouns are to be respected. This is true when the user is using neopronouns that you're unfamiliar with. It's true even if you think someone is trolling. Pronouns are not rewards for good behaviour. They aren't only to be respected when you like the person you're interacting with, or if their pronouns "make sense" to you. Trolls, spammers, twitter users, it doesn't matter who they are, your options are to respect their pronouns, or to not engage with them.

I really want to re-iterate the importance of this. Gender diverse folk are undermined, invalidated and questioned at every step of our lives. As a community, we need to be working to undo that, not creating more of it, and that means there is no space for treating pronouns (including neopronouns) as a reward for good behaviour.

This isn't a free reign for trolls and spammers. The rules still apply. Trolling, spamming, etc will continue to be dealt with, but it's not an excuse to act as if respecting someones pronouns is optional.

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[–] herinaceus@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I did not realize that typing exclusively in third-person, and pushing something that is obviously kink-related onto internet strangers was umm... not trolling?

I feel like the troll that does this gives people who fantasize about dragons a bad name, not to mention people who use neopronouns, for various non-trolling reasons, that usually hold some kind of personal meaning. Expression is complicated, but holy goddamn bollucks, third-person shitposting to try to bait people who didn't read a bio into "misgendering" bans is asinine and takes validity from people who could use it. I don't see how any mods have gone along with this "muh third-person antagonistic ranting means victimhood" shit.

Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide, because they are so very super-special.... I hope this place doesn't get tossed into dot world over this, ugh.

Tap for spoiler

I'm going to go consume alcohol and definitely ~~not~~ look at cute/sexy kobalds to cope. Feel free to DM me for info on the nature of creatures outside the scope of waking reality, if you are brave enough.

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

Whatever tho, I guess every individual user is supposed to independently block an asshat who tells people to commit suicide,

The message clearly and categorically states the rules still apply, and that behaviour is what gets actioned. Literally nothing about the post says that someone using neopronouns is otherwise exempt from the rules. If someone is telling someone to kill themselves, report it or DM it to a community mod.

[+] nifty@lemmy.world 5 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] kittykittycatboys@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

well see i belive in my brain (biological) that im kitty so therefore im still valid in ur terms :3

(also gender can be independant from anything biological meows)

[–] nifty@lemmy.world 3 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

I think the binary form of gender is a social construct, but the entire spectrum of gender identity has a biological basis because you can change aspects of people’s gender by affecting them on a physiological basis, like with hormones etc. Identity expression isn’t always related to gender or biology, I think, and it doesn’t have to be.

Oh, to be clear, just because you believe in something doesn’t mean it has the same biological implications as gender identity. I hope I am not being rude or anything :3

And yes, you’re a good kitty, Max head pat.

[–] pack_of_racoons@sh.itjust.works 12 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Is it safe to asume that this is why the mods have

...been planning on moving 196 to lemmy.world ASAP…

per https://lemmy.world/comment/14170082

[–] yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

Eh, I don't see that as a good idea... also there's already a 196 in lemmy.ml

[–] pack_of_racoons@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 hours ago

I don't like the idea either. If true, it seems like the mods/community are upset they can't feed trolls, or bully people who aren't the "right" type of queer.

[+] PugJesus@lemmy.world 32 points 16 hours ago (6 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 6 points 7 hours ago

You don't have to refer to them at all, just block obvious troll accounts. It's not like you're going to shame them into not being a troll.

[–] allo@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 hours ago

i see the gatekeeping. It's the same an antiLGBTQ person would say to an LGBTQ... "your pronouns aren't valid". So yes. It is gatekeeping. Thank you mods for keeping the area LGBTQ allied!

[–] julianh@lemm.ee 22 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

A lot of people say the same things about trans folks in terms of gay rights. Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities. And if you really don't want to use them, it's super easy to just ignore. Idk if I've ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 21 points 15 hours ago (3 children)

Some people might be fucking around, but drawing a line in the sand like that is going to inevitably invalidate people with legitimate identities.

All concepts are just lines in the sand, even down into STEM. Lines have to be drawn somewhere. The question is whether the new line drawn or erased disrupts other lines, who it benefits, and what it's worth. I happen to have a very low opinion of the idea that gender is entirely arbitrary and without any line in the sand, and that "I identify as an attack helicopter" is not a conservative defamation of the trans and NB community, but a legitimate point of view.

And if you really don’t want to use them, it’s super easy to just ignore.

The commenter was removed and banned for disagreeing with the concept that dragonfucker is a gender. On the meta comm for the instance. Under a post by the main admin.

Idk if I’ve ever even had to refer to someone with third person pronouns on Lemmy.

Dragonfucker has been banned from a number of communities for insisting on just that.

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[–] MBM@lemmings.world 14 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

That might've gone over better if it didn't read like an angry rant against "idiots"/"adult children"/"spoiled little shits"

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 18 points 15 hours ago

If it was banned for incivility, that would have been one thing. But it was banned for 'gatekeeping'. Writing on the wall, and all that jazz.

[–] shapesandstuff@feddit.org 6 points 13 hours ago

Seems mostly ok to kick someone for being rude and directly offending a specific person in their posts, regardless of the opinion voiced.

[–] block_place1232@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 11 hours ago

Most of the time I don't ask people their pronouns in public I just tend to use "they/them" until I overhear someone saying their actual pronouns then'll use them.

As for here on Lemmy I just look at their pronouns in the bio or just don't use pronouns at all in my comments.

I respect everyone and if I make a mistake that's okay and I'll refer to them with the correct pronouns.

[–] CreatingMachines@fedia.io 10 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Wow...looking at these comments, i realise I still have a lot to think about regarding my exact stance on all this...the fact that I have have zero irl exp in this is not helping...

[–] MareOfNights@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 13 hours ago (2 children)

Because nobody IRL uses neo-pronouns XD

[–] seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 6 hours ago

I know some who do, quite a lot actually because the neutral french pronoun is a neopronoun

[–] Beegzoidberg@beehaw.org 10 points 10 hours ago

Nope, never, except for all the times they do:

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/research-briefs/pronouns-usage-among-lgbtq-youth/

Even if you think it's a weird thing to do you could just choose not to engage, which is advice written in the post you commented on.

[–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 17 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

i don't mind what people call themselves and I'll use it to refer to them if I notice it, but they shouldn't expect their pronoun to be understood if it's something obscure

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 15 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (10 children)

When talking about someone, is using the commonly accepted neutral "they" allowed, or is it considered non-tolerable misgendering?

[–] qaz@lemmy.world 17 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (1 children)

It's fine by me, but I'm not sure how other moderators (or admins) feel about it

[–] Deestan@lemmy.world 29 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

Not personally affected, but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason "misgendering" for a comment talking about "drag"'s behavior but using "they".

Not warned. Not comment deleted with "please use pronoun at all times". Just bam.

If the general stance is that reaction can be "up to the admin", that's a bit... minefield-y.

[–] qaz@lemmy.world 16 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (2 children)

If the general stance is that reaction can be “up to the admin”, that’s a bit… minefield-y.

I understand that this might seem problematic. We (the mods of 196) are only partially in control of what is removed and who is banned, due it being hosted on blahaj.zone.

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[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 2 hours ago

but I saw someone instantly permabanned with reason "misgendering" for a comment talking about "drag"'s behavior but using "they".

No you didn't

[–] ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 hours ago

It depends on the person. If the pronouns you are using for someone is upsetting them and they make that clear, don't keep using them. If the only pronouns you can use make you uncomfortable, then simply don't interact with the person in question. And if the person in question is trolling or otherwise misbehaving, report them without doing so in a way that ignores their pronouns.

[–] missingno@fedia.io 16 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

It's a useful feature of language for 'they' to be a valid default you should always be able to fall back on.

I don't even know who any of you are on Lemmy, and I don't care to. I'm rarely ever even paying attention to your names to begin with.

[–] klemptor@startrek.website 16 points 12 hours ago

This is a big part of it, to be honest. Dragonfucker eagerly takes offense when people don't use the "drag" pronoun, but most of the time users aren't even looking at handles, and just defaulting to "they" as a general-use pronoun.

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