this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024
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[–] brianary@startrek.website 9 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Do they mean "buying" instead of "owning"?

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[–] Dorkyd68@lemmy.world 73 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (10 children)

As a homeowner what weighs me down most is insurance, by a large margin. It keeps increasing while the coverage decreases. It's a huge racket in my opinion

[–] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 47 points 2 days ago

Racket.

A racquet is what you hit your insurance adjuster with when you're tired of his racket.

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[–] rollerbang@lemmy.world 15 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I might still not understand but... Landlords have to pay insurance as well. Why would they be the exception. They have all the same costs and also want to make a profit. How can rent be cheaper then?

[–] exasperation@lemm.ee 8 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Two things: first, landlords aren't entitled to a profit, and second, landlord input costs might be completely different from an owner resident.

On the first point, if the landlord's costs are $2000/month, and the market rent for that unit is $1900/month, the landlord would rather lose $100/month on a lease than lose $2000/month on a vacant property.

On the second, it might be that the landlord bought the place when it was much cheaper, or has a much lower interest rate than what is available today. So if the landlord's costs are $2000/month for a property that would now cost $4000/month at today's purchase prices and interest rates, but can rent for $3000/month at a profit to himself.

Similarly, some volume landlords can spread certain costs around and not pay nearly as much as an owner resident. It might cost $1200 to hire a plumber to do a 6-hour job, but it also might cost $150 to simply have a plumber on the payroll to do that job, if you've got enough steady work that it's cheaper to have him around.

[–] rollerbang@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It might be that a homeowner also bought home when it was cheaper. Come on, get a grip.

[–] exasperation@lemm.ee 1 points 50 minutes ago

That's not part of this comparison. The comparison in this article and the metric it covers is for people who are renting versus buying in 2024. The renter in 2024 can rent from a landlord who purchased in 2010, and is borrowing at 2020 interest rates. But a buyer today is buying at 2024 prices and 2024 interest rates.

[–] WoodScientist@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Because markets aren't perfectly rational. If they were perfectly efficient, no company would ever be able to make a profit at all. But we don't live in that perfect Econ 101 world, and companies can make profits because inefficiencies exist in the economy. As such, sometimes rent can be more expensive than owning.

[–] Badeendje@lemmy.world 12 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Because if you buy a house, it's just you and the bank, so you need to cover the banks risk for you as an individual, meaning higher interest rates. Larger purchases, or a group of houses are covered by different loan types, flexible rates at for example international rated plus half a point.. and that is mich cheaper. The rate might fluctuate.. but if the government strongarms the fed to keep the loans practically free, companies borrow for free plus half a point. And that is a lot of difference.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 8 points 2 days ago

Also, the landlord is dropping that money into an asset that often appreciates in value. As long as they otherwise have cashflow to cover it, they can afford to "lose" money each month and make a big payday when they sell it.

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[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 56 points 2 days ago (4 children)

On paper, owning a home is almost always more expensive than renting — about 14% more, on average, after factoring in expenses like insurance, taxes, and upkeep.

I'd be interested in seeing how they arrived at the 14% number.

When I bought my first home a couple of decades ago I moved out of my 1 bedroom apartment which I was paying a monthly rent of $700/month into a small starter home with a mortgage of $1000/month. 20 years later that exact same apartment rents for $1350/month. All of the years I lived there my house payment never rose higher than the $1000/month mortgage payment while the rent on the apartment apparently continued to increase year over year. Meanwhile I ended up selling the starter home for $110,000 than my purchase prices nearly 20 years ago.

So is their 14% number just calculated on the first month of each (renting vs buying)?

[–] Sundial@lemm.ee 31 points 2 days ago (13 children)

Once you factor in things it mentions like insurance, taxes, upkeep along with others like a down payment then it's very easy to see where the 14% numbers comes from. Frankly, I'm surprised it's only 14%. There's a lot of additional and hidden costs with home ownership.

[–] empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (17 children)

The difference is those "costs" are going towards buying equity that you then get to keep. Maintaining a house is expensive but it is an asset that maintains value. This article really doesn't seem to understand that which shows a very basic misunderstanding of the wealth math that goes into home ownership.

Renting may be cheaper month to month but you're literally pouring that money down a black hole never to be seen in your hands again.

Granted, building equity doesn't matter when you're already have no cash paycheck-to-paycheck for either.

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[–] westyvw@lemm.ee 40 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (6 children)

I am confused, my thought process went like this:

So it's more expensive to own then rent?

Unless you own it and rent it out to others?

Nobody would be a landlord if a dwelling cost more to maintain then to rent out.

So something doesn't add up.

[–] Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 27 points 2 days ago

Most landlords bought the place earlier when home prices and mortgage rates were lower, or they just own the place outright and don't make any mortgage payments.

This article is about choosing whether to buy at current rates or rent at current rates. If you bought a place 10 years ago for half the price it's worth now and a 2% interest rate then you're probably going to be paying less then renting

[–] Takumidesh@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (4 children)

When you mortgage a home as an investment property, you are leveraging your money 5-1 (on a 20% down payment)

If rent covers 90% of the mortgage, you still make an absolutely huge profit amortized over the loan.

If you consider the tax incentives (interest write off, depreciation, capital gains deferment, pass through deduction) the gap in the rent can be covered.

Consider paying 50k down on a 250k house, the. Paying an additional 15 percent over the life of the loan (around 40k) to cover for gaps in rent.

Over the life of the loan you turned 90 grand into 250 grand (and a house is an appreciating asset, so it will likely be worth more than 250 by the end of it all)

Deduct depreciation (value of the home minus land value over 27.5 years) and carry over losses can even make up for the gap of rent you pay entirely over time.

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[–] dogslayeggs@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

This is only looking at a point in time, not the life of the loan. In the US at least, we have fixed rate loans (many countries do not have that). So your "rent" when you mortgage a home is fixed for 30 years. When you rent, your rental costs increase with inflation every year. While it might be 14% higher to mortgage than rent right now, in a few years your mortgage will stay the same while your rent will have increased. Yes, there are repair/maintenance costs, but after 5 years or so you are saving enough per month to pay for those repairs.

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[–] Free_Opinions@feddit.uk 17 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Highly dependent on where one lives I guess. My friend just rented a new apartment and his rent is over double what my mortage payments are. That's also money he is never getting back where as in my case my house is paid in about 15 years after which I own the damn thing and the monthly mortage payment drops off entirely. Excluding mortage, the montly cost of owning my house is 275€ which includes water and electricity.

[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 8 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Excluding mortage, the montly cost of owning my house is 275€ which includes water and electricity.

That's also excluding regular maintenance or emergency repairs that a landlord would be (often reluctantly) responsible for. It is also possible to do big, expensive, necessary renovations on a house and have it hardly affect the value at all.

[–] trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world 13 points 2 days ago (2 children)

It is also possible to do big, expensive, necessary renovations on a house and have it hardly affect the value at all.

Isn't this kind of irrelevant unless you're a house flipper? If you own a house and make renovations to it, it is because you find some practical value in it.

[–] teawrecks@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

A house flipper would do everything they can to avoid having to do something like this. It's primarily a normal home owner who would have to shell out for this.

Ex. when I bought my house, they told me the roof had recently been redone. I didn't know enough about it, but the pre-inspection didn't see any issues. Fast forward a year later we have someone look at it because it isn't looking right in some places. Turns out it's a very old "torchdown" roof, and by "redone" the previous owners had someone spray it with a silvercoat paint. This is something you do maybe 2-3 times in the life of this kind of roof. The inspector said there were at least 7 layers of paint, the roof itself was way past its recommended lifetime, and if there were any issues it would be impossible to know without taking the whole roof off. They said we could just wait until we have a leak, and then get it replaced, but (given several weather and money factors involved) we chose to go ahead, bite the bullet, and have a new roof installed. This was enormously expensive, but if I were to put the house on the market right after it was done, the state of the roof was already priced in. If someone wanted to pay $X a year ago thinking the roof was already recently "redone", me getting it actually redone isn't going to move that needle for anyone. It was purely for my peace of mind as the home owner who wants to continue living here. Sure that has value to me, but no tangible value that I can use to justify the purchase vs renting. I could have rented in this place for well over a year for the price of that roof.

A house flipper would have said "well, let's try to get rid of this thing before that becomes a problem for us to worry about, shall we?"

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[–] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 28 points 2 days ago (14 children)

Cost of materials and demand for contractors. Even if you DIY it, everything is 3x as expensive as it was before covid. The price of lumber never really went back to where it was before covid. Its clearly price gouging.

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[–] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 4 points 1 day ago (3 children)

The article talks a lot about mortgages. How does the math work if you pay in full at the time of purchase?

[–] Snowclone@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Renting could never compare to owning, as Equity is the biggest source of wealth for the middle class in the US. Not owning equity to pass on to your kids is one of the worst mistakes you can make. IF you can afford that sort of thing.

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago (1 children)

How have we screwed up as a society, much less species, when shelter is seen as a financial investment rather than what it is, a thing we literally need to survive?

[–] Asetru@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago

Well, as houses don't magically appear out of thin air, I guess it has been like this since we started building permanent shelter.

[–] skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Equity is pointless when your $30,000 roof and $20,000 HVAC break at the same time and you're taking out a 20 year home equity loan to replace them. (And good luck with the $70,000 windows.)

[–] potpotato@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (3 children)
[–] skuzz@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Not at all, these are (roughly) prices for 2-3 bedroom single-family homes. If curious, check AIs for any reasonably successful region around the country like Raleigh, San Jose, Austin, etc. Prices are about the same. I looked up the cost for a dual system for a larger home (that would have 2x AC, 2x furnace) and that jumped to $30k-40k for HVAC. Water heater install (gas, tank) can run $800-3000 depending on the market.

Asking others for prices for windows, I think the spread was somewhere between $50k-90k, although it's been a while since I asked peeps. That's before actually going after specialty windows.

Prices have skyrocketed since the pandemic.

[–] potpotato@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

Those costs might reflect new build estimates, not regular repair or replacement, which is the point of your OG post. Furnace repair is like $300-500 if you can’t DIY and replacement is $3-7k depending on fuel and region.

[–] cheesemoo@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I don't know about that - I had my roof replaced (by insurance thankfully) about a year ago, and it was ~26k. HVAC out of pocket a couple years ago was about 15k. Not fun!

[–] mohammed_alibi@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

It depends on how big your house is.

I paid $10k for a 4 ton 15 SEER AC this summer (this depends on location I suppose). I paid $13k for a normal roof replacement last year.

1600 sqft house.

the homeowner could have an industrial HVAC system and a wooden roof

[–] todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Not owning equity to pass on to your kids is one of the worst mistakes you can make.

"Oops, I guess I made the 'mistake' of not making enough money to afford the outrageous price of real estate. I guess my children deserve to be poor."

Or maybe we should treat housing as an public resource rather than an investment, and encourage the market to keep prices low for the sake of maintaining a healthy society.

[–] derfunkatron@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Leaving out the last sentence in your quoting does a disservice to what they were pointing out.

They weren’t saying anyone deserves to be poor. They weren’t saying that real estate being an investment is ideal or how it should be.

The housing market is historically, currently, and prospectively an investment, and one of the only high-return, low-risk investments available to the middle class. If you can play that game and don’t, then you are making a mistake, especially if you have kids.

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[–] nutsack@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago (4 children)

you divide the amount of money that it costs by the amount of dollars you would pay to rent something like that per month and then figure that's how long it'll take for you to look at a duck instead of a chicken

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[–] callouscomic@lemm.ee 17 points 2 days ago (14 children)

This ignores the difference after 5-10 years. Rent keeps going up.

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