this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2024
300 points (97.8% liked)

World News

39045 readers
2360 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News !news@lemmy.world

Politics !politics@lemmy.world

World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Former German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger says Western leaders should be making more threats and be willing to follow them through.

The West should spend less time fretting about Russian President Vladimir Putin's red lines and set its own, says veteran German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger. 

“Russia keeps saying, if you do this, if you cross this or that red line, we might escalate,” said the 78-year-old onetime chairman of the Munich Security Conference. “Why don't we turn this thing around and say to them: ‘We have lines and if you bomb one more civilian building, then you shouldn't be surprised if, say, we deliver Taurus cruise missiles or America allows Ukraine to strike military targets inside Russia’?”

 That way the onus will be on Moscow to decide whether to cross the red lines — or face the consequences.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 53 points 1 month ago (3 children)

I'm no "veteran diplomat" but in my experience it is only the people without real power who make threats. When you have power, you don't need to make threats. You just respond to events with whatever proportionate response is necessary and within your capability. You don't need to provide a preview of what those responses will be.

Setting "red lines" looks to me like weakness because it is essentially a plea to the other side not to do those things that you don't want them to do, and it invites them to push up to those red lines, do anything but, and test their boundaries to test your commitment to them.

[–] ms_lane@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

Additionally, even if it didn't look weak, setting an established red line means Russia can snuggle right up to the line.

[–] FarceOfWill@infosec.pub 5 points 1 month ago

The us, and perhaps the west in general, hasn't really used red lines since Obama threatened Syria if they used chemical weapons and then didn't follow through.

[–] RecluseRamble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

I disagree. Scaled down to small and harmless it's like handling kids. You explain what you don't want them to do and what happens/you're going to do if they continue. Now it's crucial you go through with what you threatened them with.

If you either don't deliver on the "threat" or don't act as you said you would, guess what happens? They just continue or it even gets worse.

Of course it's more delicate/difficult when handling with powerful and intelligent adults but it's at least similar. Not issuing threats is just not communicating. If you then just act (violently), things are more likely to escalate.

Edit: or back to the kids analogy: don't tell them anything but smack them once they went too far: may help in that instance but they'll just learn to better avoid you and do shit behind your back.

[–] drspod@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

If you think that international diplomacy between nation states is like handling kids then you're not a veteran diplomat either.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 50 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Red line: invasion of Ukraine

Response: F-22s over Ukrainian skies

[–] lnxtx@feddit.nl 43 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Meanwhile Israel

Red line: no red lines
Response: they have right to defend themself

[–] nogooduser@lemmy.world 28 points 1 month ago (1 children)

There is a red line. The west keeps saying over and over again that they must defend themselves within international law.

The problem is that they either ignore the red line or deny that it was ever crossed.

They'll dead ass look you in the eye and tell you that the colour red doesn't exist, without a single fuck given.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 17 points 1 month ago (7 children)

It's insane. Shows how much of international politics isn't "Which country benefits from what", but "What levers of decisionmaking are manipulated by whom". A little lobbying and foreign PR goes a long way.

[–] wildncrazyguy138@fedia.io 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Laws are meaningless if criminals are not held accountable. It doesn't matter that anyone who supports Israel supports fascism — 30% of US voters support fascism. The fact is that as long as the US (and 5 eyes) supports and arms Netanyahu, the genocide will continue; everything they declare to the contrary is nothing more than a virtue signal.

The ICJ and all opposition is meaningless unless they are willing to take collective economic and military action again Israel and its supporters. They will not.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Badeendje@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They have that right tough. It's just what we are all witnessing goes "a little" further than that.

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

They have that right tough

hard disagree. Maybe if a foreign country wanted to create a Jewish ethnostate it should have set the borders inside its own sovereign lands instead of displacing 300k people it didn't give a shit about and causing an immediate regional war and decades of ongoing conflict?

Maybe then we could consider Israel a real country. Seeing how it didn't go that way? What israel deserves is to dissolve

[–] Badeendje@lemmy.world 0 points 1 month ago (8 children)

And in your suggested dissolution of the state of Israel, what happens then? And what happens to the Jews that now live there?

[–] the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago (13 children)

I think if we're following history and making a point we should put new israel on top of your home. No problem right?

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] eacapesamsara@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago (4 children)

The same thing that happened to the Jews that lived there for millenia before Israel was created, the become normal citizens with no special rights or mandates, and are actually subject to laws intended on keeping all people safe, not just Jews. It worked continuously for millenia through dozens of different ruling states with a half dozen ruling religions, the state of Israel and it's fascism utilizing ng Jewish supremacy as a base ideology fucked that up.

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (6 replies)
[–] kubica@fedia.io 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I'm not sure that is as useful as it sounds. Yes you are trying to establish some pressure but then you might get lost on technicalities of their actions instead of focusing on the bigger picture.

[–] catloaf@lemm.ee 18 points 1 month ago (2 children)

There's no "might". The US set a red line of an invasion in Rafah. Israel rolled right over that line with tanks and airstrikes. Nothing happened.

[–] spankmonkey@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Something did happen though, the US gave even more aid and support to Israel.

[–] MelastSB@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 month ago

Yes, but Russia doesn't have nuclear weap... I mean, Russia doesn't control Congr... Totally different situation ok!

[–] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 6 points 1 month ago

putins are fictional and nothing happens. If we do do one it will happen and right now they don't want to get that involved.

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] OlinOfTheHillPeople@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Republicans.

[–] index@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 month ago

Make sure to listen very well to what former germans veteran diplomats have to say and go back to work

[–] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world -1 points 1 month ago

Yeah let's not do that. Only in fun stupid comments.

Instead we should continue this whatever it is. Give Ukraine ammo, let them use it up. Give them so more.

We've seen what happens when the US goes to war to defend others. We've seen what happens when the US replaces leaders. Etc, many scenarios have been played already. We should just let ruzzia use up all it's might so it can become a more equal fight.

The Ukrainians would be very proud when they finally get to live in a free country that fought against invasion and won. The ruzzians would never attack again and hopefully become productive and against war like Japan or Germany.

load more comments
view more: next ›