this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2024
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[–] Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 26 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What are you talking about, they have an abundance of "serious concerns" , "we're looking into it" and "we trust the army that is committing genocide to investigate itself"

[–] WaxedWookie@lemmy.world 13 points 2 months ago

Can I offer you ~~an egg~~ thoughts and prayers in this trying time?

[–] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

I'm gonna bully my Goverment to send Ukraine Weapons until the have enough to fight of the Russian Invaders.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Because the weapons being sent are intended for a different purpose? Israel is just misappropriating them.

Kind of like when we send humanitarian aid that gets intercepted by a corrupt government, you don't just not send aid.

https://oversight.house.gov/release/grothman-opens-hearing-on-biden-administrations-mismanagement-of-foreign-aid

"The World Bank estimates that twenty percent of foreign aid is lost to corruption each year, and that thirty percent of foreign aid fails to reach its intended target."

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

In a new research briefing submitted to the U.S. government today as part of the National Security Memorandum on Safeguards and Accountability with Respect to Transferred Defense Articles and Defense Services (NSM-20) process, Amnesty International USA details civilian deaths and injuries with U.S.-made weapons, as well as other cases that highlight an overall pattern of unlawful attacks by Israeli forces. The briefing also details practices by Israeli forces inconsistent with best practices for mitigating civilian harm and provides clear examples of the misuse of defense articles, the commission of torture, and the use of unlawful lethal force. Lastly, the briefing also details the denial of humanitarian assistance to the civilian population of Gaza.

“It’s shocking that the Biden administration continues to hold that the government of Israel is not violating international humanitarian law with U.S.-provided weapons when our research shows otherwise and international law experts disagree,” said Amanda Klasing, National Director for Government Relations with Amnesty International USA. “The International Court of Justice found the risk of genocide in Gaza is plausible and ordered provisional measures. President Biden must end U.S. complicity with the government of Israel’s grave violations of international law and immediately suspend the transfer of weapons to the government of Israel.”

“The evidence is clear and overwhelming: the government of Israel is using U.S.-made weapons in violation of international humanitarian and human rights law, and in a manner that is inconsistent with U.S. law and policy, said Klasing. “In order to follow U.S. laws and policies, the United States must immediately suspend any transfer of arms to the government of Israel.”

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

"provides clear examples of the misuse of defense articles"

Yup, exactly. We are providing materials for Israeli defense and Israel is intentionally misusing that support.

But we won't simply stop providing it. Because if Iran decides to actually get serious and straight up attacks Israel, the Republicans will turn to the Democrats and go "How dare you let that happen??!?!?!!"

All the while recognizing they don't actually give two shits that the weapons are misused for genocide.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Do you genuinely think the US Defense Department doesn't know what the arms we give for military aid are for? Israel is currently engaged in war. That war is the genocide of Gaza. The US has repeatedly sent military aid during this war. Yet you think the US doesn't know that it's weapons are being used in Gaza? Or that the US doesn't know Israel is violating international law with it's use of US weaponry?

I genuinely don't understand why you are defending the US, when it comes to complicity in Genocide, from providing the military weapons used in said genocide.

Israel has a long history of war crimes, especially in Gaza.

The US has long been the main supplier of those weapons

The lack of transparency of the military aid is to help provide plausible deniability about their use

U.S. Weapons Transfers to Israel Shrouded in Secrecy — but Not Ukraine

Additionally, the Pentagon has explicitly said that the US is not putting limits, as in forcing Israel to abide by International Law, on US military aid used in Gaza

On Oct. 30, Pentagon Spokesperson Sabrina Singh said that the U.S. is not putting any limits on how Israel uses U.S.-provided weapons in its war against Hamas. Even so, officials including Secretary of State Antony Blinken have said that they are in contact with their Israeli counterparts about the need to minimize civilian harm.

Despite that, it's gotten to the point where plausible deniability doesn't work any more. Instead, delay tactics are used while we continue to send military aid.

The US says Israel may have used American-supplied weapons in breach of international humanitarian law in some instances during the war in Gaza.

The entire point of conditional aid to to stop supplying weapons to Israel that are used for crimes against humanity in violation of international law. That means if Israel abides by international law, they still get and use those weapons. The issue there is that Israel routinely commits war crimes, and probably can't help breaking international law considering it's war goals.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The US Defense department does what it's civilian commander in chief tells them to do. What they know or don't know Israel is doing is immatterial.

Biden believes Israel has the right to defend itself, sells them weapons for that defense.

What they actually DO with those weapons is outside our influence.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's certainly not 'outside our influence.' That's a ridiculous notion that even if true, does not absolve the US of it's violation of International Law, US Law, and complicity in this genocide

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's outside our influence because Bibi doesn't give two shits what we or anyone else think or say about what they're doing.

And to be clear, they don't need our aid to shoot little kids in the head.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

They are going to continue until someone upends their government and makes them stop. Nobody has the balls to do that.

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's a very different argument than before, and not one against conditional military aid. If Israel decides to continue, regardless of the US ending unconditional military aid, their military capacity would become significantly reduced, seriously weakening their genocidal campaign in Gaza but also the Golan Heights. There is no nation on earth that could replace the role the US has in military aid to Israel, especially not as Israel becomes increasingly a pariah state.

This move of the US ending unconditional aid would also open the floodgates for European countries to stop their (relatively small) military aid to Israel. It would also change the international stage, as Israel would be far more vulnerable to UN Resolutions, ICC rulings, and ICJ arrest warrants. This increase in international pressure, alomg with the increase in internal pressure as Israel spreads itself thin with offensive fronts in Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights, could very likely be the catalyst for a regime change.

It's a long read so I'll try to hide it with spoilers, but this article has a great analysis on how much US influence has had and how it's changed. There is certainly a chance that Israel may continue regardless, but even so, ending our support and complicity in the genocide is still the moral, political, and lawful thing to do. Plus, it changes the international stage drastically, making Israel vulnerable to International Organs of Justice for once.

Spoiler

First, although Israel is not as dependent on U.S. support as it was in earlier eras, it is still heavily reliant on access to U.S. weaponry, both advanced weapons systems such as F-35 aircraft or Patriot air defense missiles as well as precision-guided bombs and artillery shells. The United States is not the only country that produces advanced weapons, of course, and Israel has sophisticated defense industries of its own, but reequipping its forces in the unlikely event of a U.S. cutoff would be a difficult and costly process. Israeli strategists have long believed it is vital to maintain a qualitative edge over potential opponents, and the loss of U.S. support would jeopardize its ability to do so over the longer term. Add to this the value of U.S. diplomatic protection—whether in the form of U.N. Security Council vetoes or pressure on other states to refrain from criticizing Israel—and it’s clear that the support Israel gets from the United States would be difficult if not impossible to replace. That’s why many observers believe that all Biden needs to do is threaten to reduce U.S. support and Netanyahu will have no choice but to comply.

Second, although weaker clients are hard to pressure when they care more about the issues at stake, the balance of resolve may now be shifting in ways that strengthen the U.S. hand. The United States has been able to get Israel to alter its behavior when its own interests were more heavily engaged, as was often the case during prior Middle East conflicts. President Dwight D. Eisenhower successfully pressured Israel to withdraw from the Sinai after the Second Arab-Israeli War in 1956, and U.S. officials were able to help persuade Israel to accept cease-fire agreements during the 1969-70 War of Attrition and the 1973 Arab-Israeli War. An angry phone call from President Ronald Reagan to Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin also ended a massive Israeli bombing campaign on west Beirut during its 1982 invasion of Lebanon. In each of these cases, U.S. leaders acted forcefully and successfully because they believed that broader U.S. interests were at risk.

This situation may be gradually changing as well. Defending a state that is running a system of apartheid is not an easy task, especially when it now faces plausible though unproven accusations that it is conducting a genocide. No amount of full-court hasbara can fully negate the visual images streaming out of Gaza, or the disturbing TikTok and YouTube videos that have been posted by IDF soldiers themselves, making it harder for groups like AIPAC to retain influence. When Sen. Chuck Schumer, long one of Israel’s staunchest defenders, gives a speech on the Senate floor declaring that Netanyahu’s policies are bad for Israel, you know that the political winds are shifting. Attitudes in the American body politic are shifting, too, especially among younger people. Although there are still formidable political obstacles to making U.S. support conditional on Israel’s conduct—especially in an election year—it is not as unthinkable as it was a few years ago.

I conclude that Washington does have lots of potential leverage here, and the barriers to using it are lower than they have been in the past. But because Israel’s current leaders remain highly resolved on this issue, even credible threats to reduce U.S. support might not lead them to alter course significantly. Nor is it clear if Biden or his advisors can make the mental adjustments necessary to move from their current failed approach to something more effective. Instead of focusing on whether pressure on Israel would work, the real question to ask is simply whether it is in America’s strategic or moral interest to be actively complicit in a vast and worsening humanitarian tragedy. Even if the United States cannot stop it, it doesn’t have to help make it worse.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Israel is the 8th largest arms exporter in the world, they don't need our weapons to keep doing what they're doing.

https://www.statista.com/chart/17316/share-of-global-arms-exports-by-country/

[–] Keeponstalin@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

In that scenario, how should the US respond?

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

It depends on how serious they want to be about stopping the slaughter of innocents.

The only thing that's going to work is regime change and forcing a two state solution.

[–] Skates@feddit.nl 3 points 2 months ago

If you need food to survive, you should get food. If you need guns and ammo to opress others, you should get the ammo. Flying at you. Really fast. Until you stop needing things.

[–] FenrirIII@lemmy.world -3 points 2 months ago

Yet anothet "I don't understand geopolitics" post. Sometimes there are no good guys and everything sucks.