This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Love this. I don’t know much about risc-v but I’d love to see it disrupt the market a bit.
Sadly this is just a dev kit. It has soldered memory and only works with emmc storage
RISC-V still has a ways to go before it usable for much.
Its usable for much now... Just not as a daily driver laptop. It is good for embedded applications now, but not quire there for phone or laptop use. Maybe one day.
Google is certainly planning on it being viable.
They’ve been merging RISC-V support in Android and have documented the minimum extensions over the base ISA that must be implemented for Android certification
This board has the StarFive JH7110 SoC. That processor has previously been in very low power single board computers like StarFive VisionFive 2 (2022) and Milk-V Mars (2023), a Raspberry Pi clone that can be bought for as low as $40. Its storage limitations (SD/eMMC rather than NVMe) show how much this isn't meant for laptop use.
Very underpowered for a laptop too, even when considering this is intended for developers and doesn't need to be remotely performance competitive. Consider that this has just 4 RV64GC cores, the cheapest Intel board options Framework offers are 12 cores (4P+8E), and any modern RISC-V core is far simpler with less area than even an Intel E core. These cores also lack the RISC-V vector instructions extension.
Pine64 also has the Star64 as will, in 4GB and 8GB for $70 and $90 respectively. They're not exactly hard to find.
If I was developing for RISC-V, I'd buy one of those SBCs, not a Framework laptop. But it's cool that it exists, I suppose.
You don't need a laptop to use a framework mainboard, they run without battery and display and everything. So if you have a Framework 13 or are in the market for one this might actually be a very nice thing, especially if the price is comparable to other boards.
This board also has soldered memory and uses MicroSD cards and eMMC for storage, both of which are limitations of the processor.
Ah, yeah, hard no from me dog. Can we get one of the new Snapdragons tho? Please?
Qualcomm and Broadcom are the two biggest reasons you don't own your devices any more. That is the last option anyone that cares about ownership should care about. You should expect an orphaned kernel just like all their other mobile garbage. Qualcomm is like the Satan of hardware manufacturers. The world would be a much better place if Qualcomm and Broadcom were not in it at all.
What did they do ? I thought all processor are following standards hence I am running Linux on my Intel or AMD CPU.
::: spoiler All their hardware documentation is locked under NDA nothing is publicly available about the hardware at the hardware registers level.
For instance, the base Android system AOSP is designed to use Linux kernels that are prepackaged by Google. These kernels are well documented specifically for manufacturers to add their hardware support binary modules at the last possible moment in binary form. These modules are what makes the specific hardware work. No one can update the kernel on the device without the source code for these modules. As the software ecosystem evolves, the ancient orphaned kernel creates more and more problems. This is the only reason you must buy new devices constantly. If the hardware remained undocumented publicly while just the source code for modules present on the device was merged with the kernel, the device would be supported for decades. If the hardware was documented publicly, we would write our own driver modules and have a device that is supported for decades.
This system is about like selling you a car that can only use gas that was refined prior to your purchase of the vehicle. That would be the same level of hardware theft.
The primary reason governments won't care or make effective laws against orphaned kernels is because the bleeding edge chip foundries are the primary driver of the present economy. This is the most expensive commercial endeavor in all of human history. It is largely funded by these devices and the depreciation scheme.
That is both sides of the coin, but it is done by stealing ownership from you. Individual autonomy is our most expensive resource. It can only be bought with blood and revolutions. This is the primary driver of the dystopian neofeudalism of the present world. It is the catalyst that fed the sharks that have privateered (legal piracy) healthcare, home ownership, work-life balance, and democracy. It is the spark of a new wave of authoritarianism.
Before the Google "free" internet (ownership over your digital person to exploit and manipulate), all x86 systems were fully documented publicly. The primary reason AMD exists is because we (the people) were so distrusting over these corporations stealing and manipulating that governments, militaries, and large corporations required second sourcing of chips before purchasing with public funds. We knew that products as a service - is a criminal extortion scam, way back then. AMD was the second source for Intel and produced the x86 chips under license. It was only after that when they recreated an instructions compatible alternative from scratch. There was a big legal case where Intel tried to claim copyright over their instruction set, but they lost. This created AMD. Since 2012, both Intel and AMD have proprietary code. This is primarily because the original 8086 patents expired. Most of the hardware could be produced anywhere after that. In practice there are only Intel, TSMC, and Samsung on bleeding edge fab nodes. Bleeding edge is all that matters. The price is extraordinary to bring one online. The tech it requires is only made once for a short while. The cutting edge devices are what pays for the enormous investment, but once the fab is paid for, the cost to continue running one is relatively low. The number of fabs within a node is carefully decided to try and accommodate trailing edge node demand. No new trailing edge nodes are viable to reproduce. There is no store to buy fab node hardware. As soon as all of a node's hardware is built by ASML, they start building the next node.
But if x86 has proprietary, why is it different than Qualcomm/Broadcom - no one asked. The proprietary parts are of some concern. There is an entire undocumented operating system running in the background of your hardware. That's the most concerning. The primary thing that is proprietary is the microcode. This is basically the power cycling phase of the chip, like the order that things are given power, and the instruction set that is available. Like how there are not actual chips designed for most consumer hardware. The dies are classed by quality and functionality and sorted to create the various products we see. Your slower speed laptop chip might be the same as a desktop variant that didn't perform at the required speed, power is connected differently, and it becomes a laptop chip.
When it comes to trending hardware, never fall for the Apple trap. They design nice stuff, but on the back end, Apple always uses junky hardware, and excellent in house software to make up the performance gap. They are a hype machine. The only architecture that Apple has used and hasn't abandoned because it went defunct is x86. They used MOS in the beginning. The 6502 was absolute trash compared to the other available processors. It used a pipeline trick to hack twice the actual clock speed because they couldn't fab competitive quality chips. They were just dirt cheap compared to the competition. Then it was Motorola. Then Power PC. All of these are now irrelevant. The British group that started Acorn sold the company right after RISC-V passed the major hurtle of getting past Berkeley's ownership grasp. It is a slow moving train, like all hardware, but ARM's days are numbered. RISC-V does the same fundamental thing without the royalty. There is a ton of hype because ARM is cheap and everyone is trying to grab the last treasure chests they can off the slow sinking ship. In 10 years it will be dead in all but old legacy device applications. RISC-V is not a guarantee of a less proprietary hardware future, but ARM is one of the primary cornerstones blocking end user ownership. They are enablers for thieves; the ones opening your front door to let the others inside. Even the beloved raspberry pi is a proprietary market manipulation and control scheme. It is not actually open source at the registers level and it is priced to prevent the scale viability of a truly open source and documented alternative. The chips are from a failed cable TV tuner box, and they are only made in a trailing edge fab when the fab has no other paid work. They are barely above cost and a tax write off, thus the "foundation" and dot org despite selling commercial products.
Not the case with ARM processors sadly, IMO they're a bit of a mess from that perspective. Proprietary blobs for hardware, unusual kernel hacks for some devices, and no device tree support so you can't just boot any image on any device. I think Windows for ARM encouraged some standardization in that regard, but for the most part looking at Android devices it's still very much the wild west.
This is one of the many reasons why Raspberry Pi ARM boards remain popular for the time being, despite there being so many other cheap alternatives available: they actually keep supporting their old boards & ensure hardware on their boards works from the get-go.
There are also some rare cases where Raspberry Pi rewrite open source implementations of Broadcom's proprietary blob drivers, in one instance for the built in CSI (optional camera)
Essentially no processors follow a standard. There are some that have become a de facto standard and had both backwards compatibility and clones produced like x86. But it is certainly not an open standard, and many lawsuits have been filed to limit the ability of other companies to produce compatible replacement chips.
RISC-V is an attempt to make an open instruction set that any manufacturer can make a compatible chip for, and any software developer can code for.
This is a dev kit. This is not for normal people to use. RISC-V is not there yet, but this is a good first step.
Could someone eli5 risc-v and why the fuss?
Edit: thanks for the replies. Searchingnfurther, this 15 min video is quite well made and told me more than I need to know (for now) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ps0JFsyX2fU
RISC-V (pronounced risk five), is a Free open-source Instruction Set Architecture (ISA). Other well established ISA like x86, amd64 (Intel and AMD) and ARM, are proprietary and therefore, one must pay every expensive licenses to design and build a processor using these architectures. You don't need to pay a license to build a RISC-V processor, you only need to follow the specifications. That doesn't mean the CPU design is also free, no, they stay very much the closed property of the designer, but RISC-V represents non the less, a very big step towards more transparency and technology freedom.
I pity the five year old who has to read this.
I'm a grown up though so thank you for the explanation.
Costs less
RISC-V is like LEGO, where you can put together pieces to make whatever you want. Nobody can tell you what you can or can't make, you can be as creative as you want. Oh, and there's motors and stuff too.
ARM is like Hotwheels, there are lots of cars, but you can't make your own. You can get a bit creative making tracks, but that's about it.
AMD and Intel are like RC cars, they're really fun, but they use a lot of batteries and you can't really customize them. Oh, and they're expensive, so you only get one.
Each is cool, but with LEGO, you can do everything the others do, and more. Like LEGO, RISC-V can be slow to work with, especially if you don't have the pieces you want, but the more people that use it, the better it'll get and the more pieces you can get. And if you have a 3D printer, you can make your own pieces and share them with others.
Right now it's more like megablocks
"you" as in person with required skills, resources and access to a chip fabrication facility. For many others they can just buy something designed and produced by others, or play around a bit on FPGAs.
We will also see how much variation with RISC-V will actually happen, because if every processor is a unique piece of engineering, it is really hard to write software, that works on every one.
Even with ARM there are arguable too many designs out there, which currently take a lot of effort to integrate.
Not an eli5 because I'm still not caught up on it but if my memory serves, RISC-V is an open source architecture for processors, basically like amd64 or arm64, actually I'm pretty sure ARM's chips are RISC derivatives.
Edit: correcting my comment, ARM makes RISC chips, not RISC-V
ARM and RISC-V are entirely different in that neither one is based on the other, but what they have in common is that they're both RISC (Reduced Instruction Set Computing) architectures. RISC is what makes ARM CPUs (in your phone, etc) so efficient and hopefully RISC-V will get there too.
x86 by comparison is Complex Instruction Set Computing, which allows for more performance in some cases, but isn't as efficient.
The original debate from the 80s that defined what RISC and CISC mean has already been settled and neither of those categories really apply anymore. Today all high performance CPUs are superscalar, use microcode, reorder instructions, have variable width instructions, vector instructions, etc. These are exactly the bits of complexity RISC was supposed to avoid in order to achieve higher clock speeds and therefore better performance. The microcode used in modern CPUs is very RISC like, and the instruction sets of ARM64/RISC-V and their extensions would have likely been called CISC in the 80s. All that to say the whole RISC vs CISC thing doesn't really apply anymore and neither does it explain any differences between x86 and ARM. There are differences and they do matter, but by an large it's not due to RISC vs CISC.
As for an example: if we compare the M1 and the 7840u (similar CPUs on a similar process node, one arm64 the other AMD64), the 7840u beats the M1 in performance per watt and outright performance. See https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_7_7840u-vs-apple_m1. Though the M1 has substantially better battery life than any 7840u laptop, which very clearly has nothing to do with performance per watt but rather design elements adjacent to the CPU.
In conclusion the major benefit of ARM and RISC-V really has very little to do with the ISA itself, but their more open nature allows manufacturers to build products that AMD and Intel can't or don't. CISC-V would be just as exciting.
ARM = Advanced RISC Machine
However, RISC-V is specific type of RISC and ARM is not a derivative of RISC-V but of RISC.
Arm's chips are not RISC-V derivatives.
Yup, they're RISC chips (few instructions), but RISC-V is a separate product line.
It's not just a separate product line. It's a different architecture. Not made by the same companies either, so ARM aren't involved at all. It's actually a competitor to ARM64.
When the first person opens their new laptop:
"RISC architecture is going to change everything"
Slow down there, Zerocool
HACK THE PLANET ✊
Putting on my rollerblades now.
That movie was ahead of its time in so many ways
Managers at big companies: “No we will not buy any products that have ‘Risc’ in them…if someone gets hacked we’ll take all the blame!”
As if managers even know what RISC-V is
Now imagine we only had Windows and no one would create such thing because Windows and it's programs does not have support.
Great, I'd be glad if they would consider shipping to more countries as well with localized keyboards
arm first stood for acorn RISC machine
