this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2023
674 points (95.7% liked)

Men's Liberation

1844 readers
2 users here now

This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.


Rules

Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people


Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.



Be productive


Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.

Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:

  • Build upon the OP
  • Discuss concepts rather than semantics
  • No low effort comments
  • No personal attacks


Assume good faith


Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.



No bigotry


Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.



No brigading


Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.



Recommended Reading

Related Communities

!feminism@beehaw.org
!askmen@lemmy.world
!mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world


founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 71 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The fact that being stoic, emotionless or even cold is seen as a trait of masculinity is incredibly frustrating. I feel men should be encouraged to be passionate and expressive with their emotions. Anger shouldn't be the only one we encourage as a society. Have you ever seen a man glow up about his lego collection, or cry at a beautiful scene in a movie they love? More of that please.

Also, men are just as deserving of support networks as anyone else. Though we all experience life differently, we are all human in the end.

[–] kat@lemmy.ca 45 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The fact that people took Stoicism, a philosophy that's basically cognitive behavioral therapy for emotional awareness, and twisted it to mean "stiff upper lip" or "repress everything lest you seem weak" is depressing as hell.

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's one of the reasons I've taken a liking to Diogenes' Cynicism, seeing past the "social norms" and dumb social organization ideas humans come up with.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] gornar@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Thank you for pointing this out; this has always bothered me!

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 16 points 1 year ago

That, and at the same time it's manly to be angry.

So you're supposed to be emotionless, unless the emotion pushes towards violence.

[–] chicagohuman@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

This is one reason that Star Trek and Spock and data resonate with me

[–] Oka@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] spaduf@slrpnk.net 22 points 1 year ago

This is so true. I think for a lot of us this advice (or often command) was most frequently heard in these exact words during adolescence. That said this sentiment can at times feel very present.

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 17 points 1 year ago (3 children)

In my experience it's gotten better amongst men. Men telling each other to "man up" has largely died, and they are much better at supporting each other. A lot have gotten much better at recognizing when to ask for help too.

However, I think there are a lot of men in relationships under pressure to always be the rock, the protector and provider. They're not allowed to have a problem or a weakness. I mean it's a great way to flush out awful candidate partners. Show a little vulnerability and see how disinterested they get, but it gets tiresome.

[–] villasv@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I mean it’s a great way to flush out awful candidate partners

I'd say the opposite. It's an obvious red flag that someone doesn't open up about anything.

Show a little vulnerability and see how disinterested they get

Not my experience, but something not too different.

In every relationship, someone has to be the safe harbor for the other to withstand the occasional emotional crisis. This role can and should be taken in turns so that each one gets each other's back. But when your insecurity/vulnerability matches with the other person, it takes a freaking HUGE amount of emotional intelligence and energy to be the person that tanks the crisis this one time and open up about this later, when the other person is ready to take turns.

What I observe in practice is that people (man and women) only learn how to deal with this situation in two extreme ways: 1) spiral into the storm along the partner - which is a fuckup because the other person is not ready for this; 2) suck it up forever and ever - which builds up resentment long-term.

There is a middle path. It takes time to acquire it, it takes even more time to teach it to a partner, but it's one of the main ingredients of constructive conflict resolution.

[–] gornar@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I think there's less generational transmission of this notion as the aged die off

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] gornar@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

You've a positive take, and that's what's Is appreciates abouts yous

[–] Cerothen@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

Take about 10% off there squirrelly Oka

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] princessnorah@lemmy.blahaj.zone 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As a trans woman who grew up being taught boys don’t cry, it’s taken me the better part of 6 years to learn how to connect with my emotions healthily. I’m so sorry that society treats y’all like this. 💜

[–] Naia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I basically had suppressed my emotions my whole life. Since puberty I could count on one hand with fingers to spare the number of times I legit cried before transition and it was usually something like death of a pet or family member.

Some of thst was from running on the wrong hormones, but plenty of cis men are able feel emotional on T. A lot was being scared of showing I had emotion.

I've faired better as I'm not 2 years into transition and already feel like a different person.

My theory is that because our brains are “wired” to be women, T causes our emotions to be more out of whack. Anecdotally, I’ve met a couple of trans men who felt more attuned to their emotions after starting T.

But yeah, I know what you mean about feeling scared. I’m really glad your transition is going well. Keep on shining your light!

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] amrawr@lemm.ee 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why does society do this? Mysterious as the dark side of the moon if you ask me...

[–] IndiBrony@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You must be swift as a coursing river!🎶

[–] Blaze@sopuli.xyz 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

With all the force of a great typhoon

[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

With all the strength of a raging fire!

[–] Vokills@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think it is getting better. I have a "Boys Get Sad Too" hoodie (recommend them wholeheartedly) and so far I have gotten only positive comments, even from people where you might not have expected it.

[–] bleistift2@feddit.de 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s the same for women… “Keep your head up” is also super solid advice.

[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 34 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] starlinguk@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

All your symptoms are caused by being a woman!

Half a year later: just kidding, it was cancer, too late now.

[–] spaduf@slrpnk.net 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is great context. Particularly as it highlights the differences in gendered experiences. For women it's in some ways a demand for attractiveness while for men it's more of a literal command that is more likely to be used in self policing (that is men policing masculine expectations of other men). Also notable that both sentiments seem to be more likely to come from men.

[–] Roundcat@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As someone who presents masculine, I have gotten the "be a man" treatment from women several times. Ultimately it does come from a patriarchal standard of society, but its something that is perpetuated by everyone, consciously or otherwise. Not discounting what you are saying, but I think it's important to highlight that toxic masculinity can come from anywhere.

[–] spaduf@slrpnk.net 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is absolutely true. I've thought about this a lot in reference to a study I once saw on how early education professionals are far more likely to be right-leaning women and how that plays into this phenomena (a cursory google search did not turn up a wealth of evidence so take that with a grain of salt). Particularly because I think that policing of masculinity from women in positions of authority can be incredibly salient for young boys. Unfortunately, for some it is unlikely that they will be exposed to a more feminist perspective until later in life, sometimes much later.

[–] Cabrio@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

It's because ultimately we all value 'strength' (of varying sorts) over 'weakness'. We are still far from socially internalising "strength is being able to show weakness", because in part you need to be strong to deal with the expected pushback of being OK with being 'weak'.

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 6 points 1 year ago

I think "be a man" is a demand for attractiveness too. It's said by women that want A MAN.

[–] Anticorp@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] tox_solid@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Klear@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 year ago

Man ...on-board...?

Something something Burt Ward

[–] mojo@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Females aren't in any better of a situation. Mental health support funding is non existent and fucking me over right now :(

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago (8 children)

When discussing men's experiences the most important thing is switching the conversation to women's experiences.

High fives all around!

[–] atyaz@reddthat.com 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think you're being a little disingenuous. The two conversations are not only both important, but they're both closely related to each other. It's impossible to talk about the mental well being of half the population without the other half coming up, since a lot of the problems and their solutions are the same.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago

It is very possible to focus on half the population being told to 'man up' and the gender specific meaning that phrase has since it does not apply to the other half. Just like we can focus on women being told to smile more without needing to drag men's vaguely related experiences into it.

load more comments (7 replies)
load more comments (8 replies)
[–] Veraticus@lib.lgbt 9 points 1 year ago

Dark but true…

[–] UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

just push it down -Bill Burr

[–] jonsnothere@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's only one context "Be a man" should be used in...

[–] rothaine@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

LET'S GET DOWN TO BUSINESS

load more comments
view more: next ›