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First off, I'm not even American so I don't support Vance or any other American politician.
Secondly, you support the American government, which killed around half a million middle eastern civilians in retaliation for 9/11.
Thirdly, if Israel was trying to wipe out Palestinians they're doing an absolute shit job of it. They're barely killing them faster than the birth rate and it would take centuries to wipe them out at the current rate.
Finally, no you can't say you support Palestinians and ignore what they stand for. You either don't actually support Palestinians, or you support their war. Say you support not killing instead, and drop the Palestinian conditional.
"You support the American government"
What a brain dead thing to say. Yeah, we do, because we live here and have to pay taxes. We only have so many things we can do as normal citizens, only so many people we can vote for. Seeing you say all these bad faith statements constantly makes you look like a troll.
Also, you don't have to live in America to support JD Vance. Plenty of non Americans support Harris or Trump, wtf are you on about?
"it's not my fault my country killed a half million civilians, I can't do anything about it." -You
"I demand my government force another country to stop killing civilians immediately" -Also you
You seriously don't see the problem with the way you're thinking?
Why the fuck would I support American political candidates as a non-American? Just because plenty of people are stupid, doesn't mean I need to be as well. Plenty of people think that most Palestinian civilians are innocent, but it doesn't make it true.
I can demand that my government quit funding it with my tax dollars.
You could demand your government quit funding what they're doing themselves kills people too... but I don't see you doing that.
Did you demand they stop funding attacks after the half million middle eastern civilians were killed by allied forces during the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq?
Do you demand they stop funding Ukraine because it's now invading Russia? The government is even thinking of now approving even more use of US military aid and technologies to hit further into Russia.
This is peak whataboutism.
Yes, I did, actually. In fact, I did that before a half million were killed. I was always against both wars. What's your point?
No, because Russia is the aggressor here. Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Just like Palestine would be if not for Israel.
Wait, you think Israel is the aggressor?
You're aware that the UN voted to create Israel from the rubble of the Ottoman empire, and 5 neighboring countries disagreed and violently invaded them literally the day after they declared independence right?
Some of those same countries (and others now) are still supporting the Palestinians with money and weapons to continue to attack Israel.
And what exactly can I do to stop it aside from vote? You act like you have all the answers so please tell me what the average low income American can do to stop a war half way across the world. I'll wait for the how to guide.
Never said I demand anything, I said I vote. You seem to make it a habit of putting words in peoples mouths to fit your agenda. You own a farm? Because you're building straw men like crazy lol.
I dunno, it is a very odd thing for you to do. It's also very odd to tell citizens of another country how to behave and interact with their government. What country praytell are you living in? Are you personally making an effort to stop every bad thing their doing or do you just embrace your hypocrisy full force? Oh no, I bet you're a "wait till people start dying to care" kinda guy.
You vote... great. You realize there's more options than just voting right?
Am I personally making an effort to stop every bad thing my Canadian government is doing? I'm not sure, I don't see any bad things they're doing at the moment (including supporting Israel) despite the government being made up of people that I didn't even vote for.
I don't see a lot of things that they do as bad, I understand in that most of the things people get mad at them for aren't really their fault (inflation), are necessary even though they upset a lot of people (immigration), are simply due to the limits of finite resources (healthcare), or are limits based on how our electoral system works and who's voting (house inflation).
Do I encourage them to do better? Yes. I vote (lol) but I also regularly communicate with my provincial and federal representatives, and I participate in various activities to influence and affect the policies they implement.
You don't see anything Canada is doing wrong? Oh I didn't know that was an option, yeah the US is doing fine too then haha.
Wrong? No, not really. As I said, all of the "wrong" things I'm aware of aren't in their control at all, and blaming the federal government for them is just stupid.
If you say so. I suppose it's easier to complain about other countries than to look within. I mean the housing crisis, the health care system stain, issues with indigenous rights, outdated public transportation, BC and its whole opioid epidemic. But I guess those aren't problems the government could do anything about at all...
The housing crisis is an issue of democracy, not the federal government. Fixing it would get them voted out in a heartbeat, because the only fix is to drop existing house prices by around 80-90% and 65% of the population lives in a house they or their family own. Homeowners are also far more likely to vote.
The health care system strain is an issue of resources, there's an unlimited possibility to spend money here to do more. The government has to balance available money with an acceptable level of care. Again if you asked voters for an extra $1000 each a year to boost healthcare, you'd likely get voted out.
Indigenous rights, same problem. You can't give the land back entirely, the citizens wouldn't allow it. What will citizens allow, and indigenous people accept that will resolve the situation? Probably nothing. So they balance what they can, and neither party is exactly happy.
Public transportation is a provincial, or even a municipal issue, not a federal one. It's also not a popular issue with voters, because again the demographics of voters is heavily tilted towards car owners.
We've tried things for the opioid epidemic, other places have tried things for the opioid epidemic, nobody in the world has found a solution yet. Even countries with harsh drug laws like Japan are seeing massive drug use deaths, almost 100k people a year right now. So how is it OUR government that's failing?
The system of government we have follows what people want, and people don't always want what they say when there's a cost associated with it. It's all well and good to say "I want this fixed" but if you put the real price tag on it, people are rarely willing to pay that cost. It costs more than the annual family income to jail someone for a year for example. Lots of people are tough on crime, until they realize it takes all the taxes for their entire block to pay for one inmate.
You absolutely supported JD Vance. Dude linked it for us all to see. While you're trying to hang this strawman of an anchor around a stranger's neck maybe stop and check the UN definition of Genocide.
Furthermore you specifically supported his idea that we should give some people more voting power than others. We tried that. It didn't work. We're not going back.
"supported JD Vance"
"I understood how a single statement he made might make sense"
These two things are the same to you?
Even Hitler had a few good policies, and I sure as hell don't support him.
Even Hitler had a few good policies? In reference to a proposal for some people having more voting power in a democracy?
Lmao. My dude you are off the reservation. Please stop and think about this.
I'm happy to argue the merits here, the same as I did in the Vance thread. I haven't changed my mind on it.
Currently your country (and mine) have disenfranchised a massive group of citizens, anyone under 18.
You seem to think this is right. Why is it okay to disenfranchise any citizen in a democracy?
Hitler disenfranchised an entire group of people, and that was clearly a bad policy.
Trump likes McDonalds, I like McDonalds, that doesn't make me a Trump supporter either. So why do you think that I'm a Vance supporter for agreeing with him on one thing?
They're children. That's why. We could talk about lowering the voting age to something like 16 but trying to stan all the kids for voting is ridiculous. Using them as a precedent to empower their parents with extra votes is extra ridiculous. And this isn't a McDonalds, it's the most fundamental right in any democracy.
You're right, it's the most fundamental right in democracy, so why are we denying it to them?
"They're children" isn't actually a reason. By not giving them a vote, you're essentially telling them that their needs don't matter.
That doesn't make sense. There's no logical connection there. Their needs obviously matter because their parents take care of them.
Also, JD isn't saying to give a 4 year old a vote. He wants to give that kid's parents an extra vote. There's no logical connection to those parents using the vote for their child.
And if you're modifying it to say the children should vote then I'm not sure you understand the actual idea of voting. Voters should be making informed choices and a 4 year old has trouble figuring what cereal they want, and is suspicious of this thing adults call math. Asking them to vote is ridiculous.
If their parents take care of them, and their needs matter, then why don't the parents get the vote for them?
We give parents the proxy for children's rights all the time, why is voting different?
As was in the original argument, why does Jane with 3 kids (4 people) and Barb childless (1 person) have the same input on how the government is funding schools, or how healthcare is being distributed, or even on things like environmental regulation. All three of those things will directly impact the children now and in the future.
Because that's a false premise. Barb still uses the environment and the education system. Her doctors and her water do come from somewhere. She has direct, personal, interest in those systems giving good results.
And the proxy is ridiculous. They're signing school permission slips. Anything big has to wait until the child is old enough to consent, around 16 in most places. Furthermore proxy voting has never worked at scale. It has been abused literally every time it's been used, which is why we've gone to giving one vote directly to each person.
The only thing this is meant to do is juice birth rates and feed into Nationalist Christian ideology about everyone needing to be in a family with kids.
It's false that children exist and are people? Barb is one person, Jane and her three kids are four persons. You are effectively saying that children don't matter by removing their right to vote.
Barb only has a direct interest in the short term (her remaining lifespan) and we've already seen many political policies designed only to benefit older people voted in despite them being harmful to the youth. This is exactly the same problem we see with companies pushing hard for quarterly profits but fucking their long term profitability, just on a slightly longer timescale.
As for your assertation that anything big has to wait until the child is old enough to consent? That is not how it works at all.
Parents give consent to conduct extreme medical interventions all the time, from Chemo to Amputation, they can also consent on behalf of their child for other unnecessary bodily interventions like Circumcision, Tattoos, and Piercings. Parent's take legal action on behalf of their children for all sorts of matters. Parents even get to just pack them up and move them to a different country if they want to.
Proxy voting doesn't work at scale? Yes it does. Proxy voting is literally how the US government operates. You vote for a local politician, who then votes on bills on your behalf. This is not a direct democracy, it's a republic which is a form of proxy at a massive scale.
Is there something wrong with higher birth rates? Are people not allowed to choose to have children? Are those children not citizens?
None of your arguments explain why Children shouldn't get a vote.
Oh look, here come the straw men and false equivalencies. So we're done here. You can't seem to defend this with anything solid.
Straw men?
You're the one dodging everything. You won't even admit children are people.