this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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I'm not the one who invaded Ukraine, but i support them fighting back against the aggressor.
would you rather just roll over and let russia take over?
You support who fighting back against the aggressor?
People who are now trapped in the biggest mass prison in the world? People who are trying to escape this prison by any means, including through the occupied territories, mountains and rivers? People who are afraid to leave homes and go to grocery shops, because any day they might be kidnapped by "recruitment officers" and forcefully sent to die?
You are not supporting us, you are killing us, together with Russia.
No, nobody has a duty to die for politicians. If people don't want to protect their "nation" then it shouldn't exist.
No, you are a coward for not joining the foreign legion and fighting your battles, and instead forcing other people to do your bidding.
But it seems to me that many many Ukranian citizens are actively fighting to ensure their survival and the survival of their nation, so by your own logic it should exist. If you don't want to fight, that's fine. Don't fight. There should be no duty to fight, but if you love your country, and want your way of life to continue, you should fight against the invading forces who want to destroy your country and way of life.
You have outdated info. It might have been somewhat correct 2 years ago, when there were some volunteers. Now - it's pure propaganda spread by Zelensky and parroted by the western media. Now, the only thing people do "actively" is trying to avoid being kidnapped on the streets or trying to flee the mass prison that is Ukraine, some dying in the rivers/mountains trying to do so.
And even those who fight - they don't fight for their survival, not even for the survival of the state (although I guess in some sense you can say that), just for some peace of land, which the state wants to control.
Oh really? Thank god I have a choice. Oh right, I don't - Zelensky's regime will happily kidnap me, my family and my friends and send everyone to die at the first opportunity they get (although with me it will be harder, because I escaped Ukraine before the war started).
Indeed, I'm glad that we can at least agree on this.
If only you also stopped supporting those who force this "duty" on others...
How can I love a country that wants me dead?
You are (most likely) looking at this from a perspective of a westerner, who has never been in Ukraine and/or Russia. If you live in USA, EU, or basically any other "first world country" - I can see why you would fight Russia to "keep your way of life". Look at any metric you want (GDP, HDI, corruption, journalist freedom, amount of wooden toilets in the countryside) and you will see that both countries are the same shithole give or take. Average Joe wouldn't even notice his government has changed.
What is it that makes you so consumed with hate that you are willing to fully align with the russian propaganda? There is nothing wrong with being critical, but if the consequence is, to just pick a side and unconditionally accept their narrative then you've given up any critical thinking.
Whom do I hate? People who are trying to kill me and my family and friends? Should I be okay with it?
I do not "fully align with the Russian propaganda", only with parts of it that are true... And if I said something that is false, I'd very much like to learn where I'm wrong, if you could just point me exactly what is it that I've said that is wrong?
Please tell me what made you think so
Guaranteed you've been to Russia and if you visited Ukraine you probably called it Russia as well.
You're not making points you're laying platitudes and refusing to give solutions you claim to have.
I haven't "visited" Ukraine, I've lived there.
WDYM by that? Quote needed :) My solution is to stop kidnapping innocent people on the streets and forbidding them from leaving the country, as simple as that.
Uh huh. I'm sure.
Will that stop the war you absolute bafoon?
No, what's your solution to end the war. Stop cowering and give us this brilliant solution that proves that all your bullshit platitudes and pleas to morality arent just you spouting bullshit out your mouth because your thumbs up your ass.
Of course, how will it continue if Zelensky's regime wouldn't be able to force people to fight it for him?
The same as with any other war - peace talks.
Even the most biased sources don't claim the fighting force is 100% forced fighters, none. That similarly doesn't mean Russia will stop taking territory. You're actively advocating for Russian annexation of Ukraine.
They have tried that and are still trying that, what makes you think that every attempt had stopped. Moreover Russia agreed not to invade Ukraine in iirc 1991, they bring that peace agreement, they agreed not to invade Ukraine after annexing crimea, they broke that. Do you just blindly trust a government who has time and time again shown itself to not be trustworthy.
Neither did I. But the percentage grows with each day, otherwise why would they potentially damage their reputation by kidnapping people from the streets, if there were any volunteers left?
I'm actively advocating for almost the most basic human rights imaginable - freedom of movement and freedom to live. It's way more important than that or other country owning some territory.
Zelensky has never (except at the very start of the war) even pretended to do serious peace negotiations. His solution was always "yeah we want peace - when Russia leaves all our territories including those it controlled as far as in 2014 - and then we can think about having peace talk with them". And he continuously has this attitude, as Russia gained more and more land. It's not realistic peace talks in any way, it's being a clown...
This is a fair point, they indeed broke that agreement. Just like any other country has broken agreements in the past. It doesn't mean we should all just try to kill each other and never negotiate though.
What source are you using for these metrics you keep clinging to without sourcing.
What proof at all do you have of these claims you've again failed to source.
Your source about peace talks you claim were sabotaged says otherwise, choose a lane.
Oh so we're just ignoring a chronic history of broken peace agreements and multiple invasions in what 40 years? Again choose a lane.
For my claim that the percentage of people involuntarily fighting the war? Just the logic. If you find my logic unsound, I'd very much like to hear why.
About what exactly? People being kidnapped on the streets and being forbidden to leave the country so they try to escape through rivers/mountains, or about something else?
https://theconversation.com/why-banning-men-from-leaving-ukraine-violates-their-human-rights-178411
https://uadraftmuseum.ch/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription
Quote needed. Please stop putting words in my mouth :). I've said that the west (and especially Boris Johnson) encouraged Zelensky to go to war instead of making peace, linked article talks exactly about that.
You feel therefore it's true huh? You know the punishment for draft dodging is a fine and you can leave the country if you give up citizenship.
All of those are secondhand accounts notably some by successful draft dodgers.
That would be sabotaging a peace talk dumb dumb, do you need everything to be word for word or are you at all capable of critical thought and basic inference.
Let's try that once again: I've backed what I said with logic. If you find my logic flawed - I'd very much like to hear about it.
That's false.
3-5 years of prison time.
https://24tv.ua/ru/nejavka-po-povestke-chto-budet-esli-ne-prijti-voenkomat-shtraf_n2333472
That's impossible do in practice.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/columns/2022/08/17/7363468/
Please link it.
To be based in logic you would need evidence, what you're using is emotion and inference.
Yes, your source also says it's a fine and potential imprisonment after several violations. Not getting grabbed off the street as you so claim but only have anecdotal evidence of. If you don't want to fight and won't be an objector then renounce, move to the border (if you survive that long) and seek asylum literally anyone can do that. You're confusing being forced to make a very hard choice with not having any choice.
They're your links! Just look at your comment and read the links you provided one of which includes your grabbed off the street account given by a draft dodger talking about something he heard second hand. None of those accounts are first hand of someone "grabbed off the street".
No, I'm using evidence, but as you are ignoring it (and even calling hundreds of cases - one case...) - let me link it once again :)
https://uadraftmuseum.ch/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/ukraine-urgently-needs-soldiers-but-some-men-are-desperate-not-to-fight/ar-BB1naQUE https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-russia-war-recruitment/32310040.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66542065 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/aug/15/bribes-and-hiding-at-home-the-ukrainian-men-trying-to-avoid-conscription
Again, I've linked evidence, you just choose to ignore it.
I've already told you that it is impossible, and linked evidence, and you've ignored it. But once again, let me link it again.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/columns/2022/08/17/7363468/
None of those have firsthand accounts, quote one and prove me wrong.
The use of deprive and lose negate that dipshit argument. Your sources say the state can't deprive you of citizenship or make you stateless, you can however choose to be stateless.
Not one of those includes talking to an actual person who was grabbed, we've already discussed this.
Again that says what the state can't do, not what you can do.
https://uaconsulate.org/obtaining-ukrainian-citizenship/citizenship-withdrawal
I'm trying to understand what you imagine it like. BBC taking an interview of someone who was grabbed off the street? The chances of it are close to zero because 1) those who are grabbed off the streets are sent to die, not go give interviews 2) it's not a topic that would be interesting to the western audience, because probanly nobody would be shocked by it and people are going to justify it by "oh well Zelensky needs to do that because he is a good guy fighting bad guys", just like they do it on lemmy. 3) it is simply not in the interest of media to capture this, because it would go against the west narrative.
You disregard available evidence because you don't like it, and instead ask for unrealistic.
Let me quote the piece of the article that literally says otherwise.
There's no evidence for it against so dispite that you're certain it's one way and not the other. You're not willing to give a country that's being invaded the benefit of a doubt... I see why you fled you're a sympathizer.
Evidence for what? I've linked evidence to what I was saying, you are ignoring it, again...
What benefit of the doubt?? Some of my family is in Ukraine right now, and each day they fear being kidnapped on the street... What benefit of the doubt you are talking about?? How am I a sympathizer for saying I'm afraid for the lives of those close to me?? You're either incredibly sadistic or what you're saying doesn't make sense...
Do you have even a little bit of empathy towards people being mass imprisoned and sent to die in Ukraine?..
Again that's an inference, that's at best secondary evidence it's not proof.
Yes, the benefit of a doubt. Oh so you're such a coward you left your family to the slaughter but deign to moralize from your age space. I can fear anal probing because I've seen a convincing video or two, it doesn't make it rational and it doesn't make it reality. You're afraid of something that isn't proven and implying that the war can stop if Ukraine simply stops fighting and accepts Russian demands that's Russian sympathizing. You've a rapist mentality about it like oh if Ukraine would have just accepted unreasonable demands they wouldn't have had what's coming to them. You're faking a Ukrainian story, don't try to high horse me shitheel.
If it's happening sure, I have more empathy for those that have died today while you sit here talking shit on your claimed country and appologise for Russian invasions. "Oh look no one got hurt the first time""of yeah people got hurt but they weren't really people right"
Don't call yourself Ukrainian anymore.