Update: I got banned from hexbear and grad lmao
this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2024
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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Meanwhile On Grad
Documenting hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse. Memes are welcome!
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We should just defederate all the ml domains, it would greatly improve the Lemmy experience.
Defederate them for having a different political worldview? Defederation is supposed to be for extreme circumstances. There's not a problem that .ml communities cause of people breaking the rules here. I'm not saying there aren't toxic people from lemmy.ml or lemmygrad.ml, there definitely are, but there's nothing to justify defederation.
If instances just start defederating other instances for hosting a lot of communists then the platform's gonna fall apart lol.
You can block instances if you don't like them. You don't have to decide what the best experience for all us other lemm.ee users is.
It's not about an ideology. It's that they make it their identity. If someone founded a server and community for lemmy.fascists I wouldn't blame a lot of people for not wanting to Federate with it as well.
While they like to talk to talk. They'll do anything but walk the walk. Ml governments have been some of the most brutal and repressive in existence. And this is not a defense of anyone else. just a critique of them. There's plenty of criticism to go around. However Leninist are particularly hypocritical, bad faith, and specifically not worth engaging with when it bleeds over into every other discussion.
I completely get the stance you have. I just can't agree with the view that the instances are as bad as fascist instances. I mean some of the communities there definitely express heinous views don't get me wrong, but they're a leftist instance with many different types of leftism. There's the extremist "tankie" communities (one might call them) with all the Russian and North Korean apologia (yes, internet MLs think North Korea is free and democratic), then there's most of the rest of the instance with well-adjusted but very leftist views. This goes for .ml and hexbear but, I haven't seen much of anything other than authoritarian communism on lemmygrad so I can't say anything positive about that.
I think most instances have their extremely problematic areas that those admins don't see as problems, and we have to weigh whether those problems are serious enough to cause major problems for lemm.ee. Seemingly in our admins' opinions, and my opinion, hexbear and .ml are easily dealt with by just blocking them. I have seen a ton of cryptofascists and actual pedophiles from some other specific large instances (cough .world), and while I certainly put some blame on the instance admins for catering towards people with those views somewhat, I don't want to defederate from them. There's tons of good reason to federate with .world, and tons of good reason to federate with .ml, and with hexbear. They all contribute a lot of non-political stuff to my feed. Hexbear has probably the best trans communities along with blahaj.zone, probably like 1/3 of the posts in my feed are from .ml plus .world.
IMO, since there are a lot of instances that defederate those instances already, the classic use of the Fediverse is to have your account on one of those instances. Or to block the instance if you don't want to go that far. I go on lemm.ee specifically so I can see all the fediverse has to offer without having to change between a bunch of different accounts because of defederation. I don't want the LGBT and leftist communities I participate in to be blocked because a bunch of guys in the instance have really bad opinions. Unless they're spreading abuse content or something, I'd probably rather be able to see the instance.
Sorry for the wall of text, but defederation is an important topic that affects everyone on the site, I think it should have a lot of elaboration.
The administration and leadership alone is bad. Fascists have less/non controversial views too. Is that an actual argument for them?
They aren't leftist in any meaningful sense. They're authoritarian first. Anything else is an afterthought. An anarchist or anarco-communist like myself calling out the ML state and the vanguard party for their failures. Would be deemed an enemy of the state. Imprisoned, killed, or if I was lucky. Just have my life ruined.
There's plenty of Anarchist and non-ML communities on .ml and hexbear. The hardcore Maoist stuff doesn't apply to most of the communities on .ml. Either way though, the communities they do have isn't as relevant to federation for lemm.ee since the admins stated they only consider defederation for activities on lemm.ee. Which again, I would say lemmy.world and other instances have had just as much of a problem. That's relevant because in that case, if we're defederating .ml/hexbear, logically we should defederate .world.
Every day on this site I see people who are into transphobia ("I don't believe in trans people" I shit you not is something I've seen), Palestinians ethnic cleansing, want to get rid of healthcare, all that Project 2025 and "ancap" stuff. And they're mostly from lemmy.world and sometimes instances like sh.itjust.works. Their propoganda seems to prove far more consequential on the site, as most people will think you're a lunatic if you say China is a free and democratic nation, but a lot of people will buy what is now mainstream far-right propoganda and culture war nonsense. Although both of those will tell Americans to not vote for Kamala.
'Anarchists' who are plenty okay with authoritarianism.
When reddit was the main alternative and Lemmy.ml was the main server? Sure. Even if both groups are administered by authoritarians. At least nominally leninists have a couple more things that they like to pretend they have in common.
That doesn't mean the group's over there were healthy or well established. You have to tiptoe around the egos of those in the in group. And criticizing the flaws of their ideology would get you banned from communities and or the server quickly.
The reason people want to de-Federate with ML and related servers is literally their administration. Not just people on the server. Are there problems with people on world? Absolutely. But I doubt you see rud or any of the admins as part of it and enabling it. Literally in your own words. They've kind of been too open and you don't like some of the people that they have allowed to be on their server. You're OKAY with cultish authoritarians who pretend to be trans friendly. Till they find some reason to call the person a secret capitalist liberal etc etc etc and ban them. I'd rather be part of a community that would risk letting in a few transphobes etc. Rather than one that cannot take self-reflection or self-criticism without lashing out against those who level it.
So let me get this straight:
You think it's okay that Israelis colonized Palestine. You think it's okay that they've displaced and murdered millions throughout their entire existence, taken hundreds of Arab towns and cities and renamed them with Hebrew names. You decry anyone pointing out that Israel does this stuff as 'hate'. On top of that, you've argued that slurs are okay, and that it's "woke" to say slurs are bad. You're literally a modern Nazi cosplaying as a leftist.
But somehow, you have the resolve to crawl around my comments, trying to get your ego back apparently, and you do the mental gymnastics to conclude that "defederation is reserved for extreme cases" is equivalent to 'defending redfash'. That's creepy. What is wrong with you, you freak? Why do you want to defend indiscriminately blowing up civilians, women, children so badly? Because they're the wrong ethnicity? Do you really think anyone's going to believe you calling anti-genocide protestors "Nazis" while you support the people who contribute to Israel's war crimes and prop up this ethnostate?
How do you suppose you get to label other people fascists, you fascist? Why don't you have any introspection?
Jesus you are weird
Keep it to the other comment chain you two.
Oh wow thats so fucking wrong, lemmy.ml is run by the same admins as lemmygrad, that goes for most mods as well, they are basically red faschism, thats not a different opinion, thats straight up illigal shit in many places and defederation is a great option to filter out illigal stuff. Both .ml instances have regular posts that violate EU laws, especially regarding genocide denial and screaming genocide about things that very obviously are not.
Look, I don't know the federation rules of ani.social. But our instance, lemm.ee, has defederated literally only 3 instances. IIRC 2 of them are borderline CSAM instances, and the other one is threads.net. The instance intentionally has lenient rules on this stuff – defederation doesn't happen unless there's a massive issue of rule-breaking in lemm.ee caused by the other instance (e.g. spam/brigading) which can't be resolved with diplomacy between admins. Hence defederation being considered the last resort.
Also I'm not so sure about the claim that denying the Uyghur genocide and saying they think certain other things are genocide (don't know what you're referring to here though) is illegal in the EU.
We defederated nothing but the .ml bouble including Hexbear defederated us because we apparently have something to do with child porn, NSFW is literally not allowed here...
And genocide denial is illegal in Germany, many other EU countries followed that, but the majority of instances host with Hezner, wich has servers in Germany, so its legally problematic for EU hosted instances. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-criminalizes-denying-war-crimes-genocide/a-63834791
Lemmy.ml also Spams the modlog and have been reported to engage in problematic federation actions. Hexbear is also Brigading a lot and lemmygrad is literally denying the holocaust from time to time.
Huh. Well considering the actions of the German government this past year, I doubt they'll be doing much about genocide denial this time around.
This alleged holocaust denial though... you've piqued my interest. Lemmygrad, being an extremely communist instance, is almost always vocal about how the Nazis did a lot of genocide. It'd be weird for that to be there without immediately being removed by mods. Do you have any examples or quotes, perchance? I haven't had a particularly good experience with lemmygrad users on average, but this would definitely take the cake.
As for Hexbear brigading, that actually was apparently an issue for lemm.ee a long time ago. But the admins talked with the hexbear admins and were able to get it resolved. At least, on lemm.ee communities, hexbear users seem to be following the rules – usually it's lemmy.world users breaking the rules sitewide (usually for transphobia, very recently some prominent users there were promoting pedophilia). But I think lemm.ee doesn't ban users much regardless unless they're extraordinarily uncivil and cartoonishly evil. There's not even a modlog that I can find (pretty weird not to have a mod log).
Lemmygrad doesn't deny the nazis did the holocaust, no. But they do deny that Jews were systematically killed in WW2 by the Soviet Union. They do deny that the Soviet Union assisted Nazi Germany in gathering Jews.
There is evidence of this across this community, which you may search for at your leisure.
Oh yeah? Want to explain how? Because the Soviet Union also contributed to killing jews.
Tankies are not welcome
Oh wow no thanks blocked.
I restored your comments. No idea why they were removed as they aren't in the modlog. Did your instance admins remove them for some reason?
...? I'm confused. Is ani.social a Nazi/anti-Palestine instance? I've had a total of 2 interactions with people from there mentioning Germany denying Israeli war crimes, and both of those people happened to be pro-ethnostate and immediately went the genocide denial route. I guess weebs on Lemmy are just as conservative as weebs on Reddit or something
Edit: Oh, it's mostly porn/erotic content and talking about erotic content in anime... so it's literally just the Reddit anime communities, but on the fediverse. Welp, that's enough Lemmy for today
Now make this argument in their spaces - see how that goes for you.