this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2024
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It's not time stolen from you as the work needs to be done either way, but it's money stolen from you as you're either underpaid or paying too much for what you're buying.
Very often the work does not need to get done, the work uses up a poorly paid employee's entire work day to squeeze out an extra fraction of a percent of profit.
You're right about money, and employers are often stealing time as well.
See also: bullshit Jobs
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34466958-bullshit-jobs
See exactly: bullshit jobs
I believe it was Marx who first observed that superfluous jobs, as well as unemployment, are inextricably linked to capitalism.
EDIT: Found a relevant Marx quote in Grundrisse:
See also Marcuse, 1969:
Great quote. I'm sure people have been spying out bullshit jobs before the industrial revolution, too.
On call standing in the corner to present candied dates or wave palm fronds over the emperor was necessary only for the emperor to fool himself into thinking he was inherently more important than anyone else.
I can't imagine nobody noticed.
https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=4042
It is time stolen from you as well. You only need to work a fraction of the time you do in order to cover your wages, the rest of the day is free profit for the Capitalist.
money is time
You are not only working to mentain a functional society, you are also working to constantly grow it (each year more stuff must be made, more money must be earned, more of everything) it and also to create a very big surplus for the rich. We also burn perfectly edible food, ruin perfectly wearable clothing and make electronic devices that intentionally break in a few years to get you to buy another one sooner just to get the 1% more money. If we didn't do all that and they lived normal, non-luxury lives, everyone would have a lot more free time. If everyone worked only 20 hours a week, we'd make enough to sustain our society.
Also, most workers are so deeply alienated because they know that they aren't working for themselves, they are working for someone else. Which is why most people simply stop giving a fuck at some point.
There is so much inefficiency because most who do the actual work don't have much motivation to do a decent job, yet alone think about what they are doing because you simply get punished, or at least don't get any reward, for thinking. And they people who (should) do the thinking often don't have a clue as they live in a bubble.
And of course there is all the bullshit about shipping stuff across the world to do different stuff when it is completely unnecessesary..
If everyone was making more money demand would increase therefore people would need to work more, not less...
It's time stolen from you if you have to commute to your job.
It's time stolen from you if a lot of your job is pointless busywork.
it impairs the economy. More folks could hire people to do things. Remember there were milkmen and tv repair men at one point in time. You could hire someone to clean your house and they could hire someone to do their taxes. its amazing how an economy works when people have money to spend rather than hoard.
There were also icemen at one point. Then we invented refrigerators. Nobody seems to miss having a giant block of ice delivered to their house to keep the food we buy at the stores cold. But one thing I think a lot of people miss is appliances that didn't need to be thrown away.
Fam, at my last job they had roughly 23h of activity for me per week. 17h of nothing to do and still having to stick around because i needed every penny to be able to pay my bills.
Anecdotal, plenty of jobs where downtime doesn't exist.
For many jobs it is indeed stolen time https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=4042
Oh wow, a comic!
well if you got more money per hours of work or things were cheaper, you would probably work less
How many hours of work are necessary to build car? Does it suddenly take less just because the employees are paid more? No.
If a client wants an employee's help for 15 minutes, will they suddenly want their help for 10 minutes just because the employee is paid more? No.
There are bullshit jobs around, but most of them aren't, the work needed to accomplish the tasks will still be the same.
no but people may work in shifts still getting the same total man hours in a company.
Unemployment is pretty low right now, where will you find the staff for that?
For once companies could downsize not because they want to fire people but because there is an excess of jobs. There are many many businesses that produce in excess (take the clothing sector for instance) or others that have already hired beyond sustainability (software and tech). Many governments also have programs to hire in excess for non-required roles to reduce unemployment. There is so much room for optimization but realistically with other effects like average number of kids per family decreasing some degree of automatization beyond what we have now and some change in people's lifestyles will be required too.
Suddenly everyone has a shit ton more money and you think demand wouldn't go up?
Production would actually have to increase.
some may fall into rampant consumerism even more, but some (hopefully many) will come out of it because they have money and time for decent hobbies actually. so instead of buying tons of easily consumable crap stuff of every kind to pass whatever little time they have, instead they will focus on buying less but more decent of the stuff they are really interested in.
So people who have a piece of crap car wouldn't replace it? People who don't have a car wouldn't get one? People who rent wouldn't want to buy a house? People who never went on vacation wouldn't want to travel? People who have a phone that barely works wouldn't get a newer model? People wouldn't start eating actual food instead of eating the cheapest stuff they can find? People wouldn't get new clothes, a new TV, new appliances that actually work properly, go to the restaurant...
Wealth redistribution means people can now afford to live a comfortable life, that means them getting what they need to be comfortable.
Cars and phones? %90 percent of people already has one of those. Better income will mean people only moving to better quality ones and the production shifting in that direction rather than accommodating a large economic range as it is now. Homes? There are probably enough homes for everyone, maybe even excess. It is just that richer people own more and rent them out. So no net change in required number of constructions. Clothing? You must be kidding, it is produced in so much excess that it can probably support double the existing population. And again if people get better pay, they will mostly move towards higher quality and not necessarily more of the same quality. Same thing with food, you said it yourself. Production of crap stuff will just be shifted towards production of better quality stuff that people can afford.
It is only people who are at the very bottom like homeless or extremely poor whose consumption will substantially increase with a better economic situation but there can be enough room for accommodating that with better optimized processes and more automation. So much of the stuff you have counted is produced in excess and goes to waste that I am sure even that would be enough to meet increased demand if regulated properly.
Oh so you want wealth to be redistributed in rich countries only and poor countries can stay poor, ok got it 👍
you sound like a person out of arguments, good bye.
You're the one who can only think in relation to what the middle class is living now and not what the vast majority of the population in the world is living. Look at developing countries, we can see exactly what the transition looks like when people with little means finally have some wealth going their way and if you think there aren't people living in bad socioeconomic conditions in your own country then I invite you to get your head out of your ass for a sec and look around you, unless you live in Monte Carlo your peers are struggling, close to 80% of US citizens live paycheck to paycheck!