this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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When people are way too smug about their wrong answer.
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I try to always emphasize the existential threat to the South that abolishing slavery was. As another user pointed out in Mississippi's declaration of secession, their "position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery". If you abolish slavery, the South dies (in the economic sense, and in the cultural sense for white people) immediately. If you simply restrict slavery to this one corner of the country, the South dies slowly as its political power is curbed.
Remember the Upton Sinclair quote: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Similarly, people who would otherwise be on the fence about slavery were firmly in the pro-slavery camp because of the political and economic power inextricably tied to it.
That's not to say that the South was full of reluctant slave owners or anything. It was still one of the most racist times and places in human history. The South brutalized their slaves and they enjoyed doing it, or at best were indifferent to the brutality.
The South liked slavery. But it was the economic and political threat that meant fighting was their only course of action if they wanted to survive as a socio-economic bloc at all. If it weren't for the economic impact, they probably would have done like the North: got rid of their slaves (though not their racism...the North was extremely racist at the time too, a fact which history glosses over).
And we can see proof of this in the history of the South after they lost: abject poverty for generations. That was what they feared.
It's way more complicated than pro-slavery vs anti-slavery. On both sides. Yes, that was a central theme but there's an important distinction between "fighting to keep slaves" and "fighting to keep the economy built on slaves". The former is pure evil, the latter is the same kind of evil we all promote when we buy iphones or leggings assembled by child laborers in China.
I grew up in the South and went to college in the South, so I learned all of this. But I've since discovered that in the rest of the country, none of this context is taught. It's literally "these guys were all unrepentantly evil and we, the good people, defeated them". Like a fairy tale.
On the southern side it’s really not any more complicated than being pro-slavery. Not only secession, but throughout the 19th century southern states were pushing for the continuance and expansion of slavery, and actually resisted industrial development in the south because of the threat it posed, then as you point out fought to preserve slavery. And I’d love to know the difference between fighting to keep slaves and fighting to keep an economy built on slaves, and how a southern plantation owner who owns slaves and has great sway in government (or is in government) is in any way comparable to me with no political power buying an iPhone (or other smartphone) because of the difficulty surviving in the modern world without one.
And I’m sorry, I did not realize that southerners were all given in depth lessons about bleeding Kansas and the lead up to the civil war. You must be hiding them somewhere because all I ever get from southerners is the rote memorization of basic historical facts that seem to (but don’t) contradict popular narratives of the civil war with absolutely zero historical analysis, just like the picture. I’d much rather a layperson have the northern “fairy tale” understanding of the civil war that actually gets its reasons for occurring correct, than some both sides attitude towards it. I honestly cannot believe I typed out that whole thing above and what I get in response is some sort of “nuanced” confederate apologia.
i like you
I doubt that, but I'll play along.
First though, we should make a distinction. Most people are ignorant. If we are to leave people ignorant of history, yes the Northern fairy tale is better than the Southern one. At least then they're not ignorant and racist. But here I'm arguing against fairy tales AT ALL.
Nuance can be weaponized, yes. That's a poor argument for always striving against nuance and contextualizing things. I haven't seen any pro confederate racism in this thread at all. I think we are not in danger of that happening here, now, in this conversation specifically.
I think we can afford nuance in this space. We don't need to silence it for fear of it being weaponized by bigots. There's very few if any bigots here, and the pro-nuance camp here doesn't deserve to be accused of bigotry. Maaaaybe pedantry, at worst.
Back to my first point:
The difference is one of degree. The North faced a similar dilemma of pro-slavery racism vs abolitionism a hundred years prior, but without the economic or political implications. That was a pure "racism good" vs "racism bad" debate, and "racism bad" won. Not a complete victory, but enough to undo slavery and some of the worst dehumanizing aspects of racism.
If you could, today, abolish slavery and child labor without giving up your iphones and milk chocolate and cheap clothes, that's an easy battle to undertake, morally. But you can't extricate the economic implications. Removing yourself from consumerism is HARD. We have fought wars to protect our oil even though we know it's bad for the planet. No, we didn't all agree with it, but enough people put their immediate quality of life above concerns for the climate and for the well being of locals. These people, you and I included, are not all unrepentantly evil.
It's a tradeoff. It's a spectrum. It's not all yes or no, black or white, good or evil.
"I will fight a war to preserve my right to be evil" is not a thing that anyone has ever thought or done. "I will fight a war to maintain my standard of living" is a thing that happens all the time, even when that standard of living is based on evil.
In many cases, the evil that the standard of life is based on is SO EVIL, it must be stopped. That's why the North was right. I'm not making some sort of both sides bullshit argument here. The Confederacy was wrong, and should not have existed. The tradeoff between harm done and standard of living for those on top was too much, by far. It was a morally good thing that slavery was destroyed, despite the harm that came to Southern whites because of it.
But the reason for understanding all this is so we don't fall into the trap of dehumanizing the Confederacy. They're not cartoon villains. They had rational reasons for why they were willing to fight to preserve slavery.
"People who disagree with me are evil, full stop" is a dangerous place for one's mind to go, and I'll always try to combat it. With the understanding, like I mentioned above, that nuance can be weaponized, and when that happens (not before), we can take the gloves off, ignore nuance, and berate the bigots into submission. Then once the bigots are gone, we can go back to discussing nuanced and contextualized hostory.
Granted, this early history of abolitionism in the north is not as much in my wheelhouse, but I have to doubt the charge that northern slavers so willingly gave up their slaves based on idealistic appeals of “racism is bad.” The real reason slavery did not gain as much of a foothold in the north is one of environment - the south is blessed with low, flat and extremely fertile plains, longer growing seasons and a warmer climate, which lends itself to agriculture and the large plantations so common in the south. The north is rocky, colder, and growing seasons are shorter. That’s not to say the north did not have large slaveowners, but the plantation economy of the south could never have existed in the north. What the north does have is harbors. While slavery might not have looked the same in the north, there were plenty of people involved in the slave trade in the north because of the importance of shipping to the northern economy. I don’t imagine the slaveowners and slave traders so willingly gave up the slave economy in the north, but slavery just never had the foothold in the north that it did in the south, and when the industrial economy gets going the north is just better suited for it, especially with its shipping capabilities, and many slave traders I imagine could be flexible since it wasn’t so much “slaves” they were tied to as “trade.”
The rest of this, I don’t know, I don’t understand the nuance you believe there should be with regards to the south. I’m not dehumanizing confederates, they were in fact all too human, which I believe is even scarier, that human beings are able to rationalize the subjugation of another human being, or rationalize themselves into supporting it. I understand exactly what you’re saying they wanted to maintain their lifestyles, privileges, and class position, but I take the opposite position which is they are bad people for doing so. And yeah maybe they were raised that way, propagandized that way, never had a chance to form differing opinions - I don’t care. At one point they were upholding slavery and maintaining it, and I’m not going to be gentle with them while Black people were being worked to death, killed, beaten, and kept in bondage through their actions.
My concern when it comes to nuance IS the dehumanizing. Removing context inevitably causes "othering" of the perpetrators. We begin to think they're some other species, nothing like you and I or our friends. So then when it happens again it sneaks up on us.
Nuance allows us to LEARN from the tragedies of the past.
I am telling you that I am not dehumanizing confederates, and the fact that they are human makes it even worse. What is the nuance you think I need to avoid dehumanizing confederates?
I'm not specifically talking about your responses when I'm talking about dehumanizing. Just the general conversation in this thread.
Edit: in fact of all the responses here, yours is probably the most level headed and rational.
The fact that the confederates were not cartoon characters but people makes their collective crime against humanity worse, not more sympathetic as you seem to believe.
I in fact do not believe that. And in fact I never said or implied that.
Slave owners and their drivers are unrepentantly evil in my book, there's no amount of apologia you can offer to make me feel good about Preston Brooks or any of the big Charleston plantation owners.
Knowledge can be a burden. It's definitely easier to just rabble rabble rabble
thaaat is not exactly the same thing
in quite a few ways actually
It's literally slaves
They're just over there instead of over here
back that claim up with something
United Nations: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-08-18/xinjiang-forced-labour-china-un-slavery-expert/101347992
yes, we know about this
what are they being forced to produce? you claimed iphones and leggings? back that up.
Rofl those were examples. It's obviously very difficult to tell exactly what they're producing but they definitely work in manufacturing producing goods that come to the West.
and you're backing this up with...
See previous UN report
i did, didn't see what you are claiming.
whats the section/paragraph number that backs up your claims?
I will give you one. Just one. If after this you demand further citations, specificity, or detailed description, I will denounce you as a sealioning troll and banish you.
Third paragraph:
had to look up sea-lioning, don't think this applies since you didn't actually provide past evidence nor am i pretending to have an honest, civil debate. I think you are someone who has heard a lot of different things, probably with the right intention, and have conflated them into one mass as if half the world's population were not involved. so I've been asking you to pull apart that tangled ball of thread and see if you can't find a kernel of truth.
in this case, you may have. after all, "is reasonable to conclude..." and "this slave is manufacturing the shit you bought at Target" are roughly the same, right?
No, of course they are not. But while I'd hoped you had the rigor to actually come up with a coherent argument, you seem not to have. I'll save you a click and block you.
You must be a tankie, only a CCP bootlicker could come up with the mental gymnastics to say "there are slaves" means "there are not slaves".
Sometimes even the way slavery is taught, as if the point of slavery was to produce white supremacy rather than cotton and not the other way around, an economic system which these notions of race and white supremacy developed to explain and justify.
Then post-Civil War you have this Populist movement which condensed the interests of both black and white labor and really threatened the landowners, and out of that comes things like Booker T Washington's "Atlantic Compromise" and notions of race relations. It isn't really until the New Deal and the 50-60s with A. Philip Randolph and MLK Jr that you get any kind of serious civil rights connections to labor organizing again.
This is a perfect summary of how I feel the civil war is taught in the north.