this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Do any of them know what the word "liberal" actually means?

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[–] Andrzej@lemmy.myserv.one 55 points 6 months ago (64 children)

Do you know what the word 'liberal' actually means

[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (5 children)

It has 2 common definitions:

  1. Neo-liberal: a political approach that favors free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending
  2. Leftism in general.

You're almost never going to hear the right-wing use #1. Authoritarian communists will use #1 as a catch-all for modern capitalism.

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 33 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The US is such a right wing country that liberals are the mainstream left. In Europe, liberals are centrists and they aren't further to the right than American libs.

[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 7 points 6 months ago (4 children)

The meme says "American Republicans" so I thought we were considering this from an American pov. Definitions are going to change going to other countries and doubly so when talking about politics.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 11 points 6 months ago (17 children)

It isn't just about it meaning something else when 'going to another country'. 'Liberal' has an actual definition with a history.

I'm honestly kind of confused about american liberals digging their heals in on this definition when it has historically been taken to mean something they don't seem to agree with anymore.

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[–] archomrade@midwest.social 11 points 6 months ago (4 children)

It's extremely frustrating hearing this repeated so often here.

It's fine if this is the colloquial definition you're used to hearing and using, but this is certainly not the way it's used outside of American politics and pretending like it's the only use comes off as both ill-informed and condescending.

When used derisively from the left, rest assured it is not referring to either of your adopted generalizations but a very specific ideology.

[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Ok. But this meme says American Republican.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The meme also says 'authoritarian communists' but there are plenty of anarchists and socialists who use liberal as a disparagement.

[–] TheTetrapod@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

Yeah, this meme was close to something, but I think OP doesn't actually know much about politics.

[–] thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

ok, so among English speaking countries, how is it more often used? we've got multiple people in this thread aggressively telling him he's wrong, but no other definitions.

[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago (2 children)

how is it more often used?

Look up liberalism for liberals.

I wasn't aware Americans made up their own meaning. Now I understand why upvoted comments mentioning "liberal values" receive a flurry of downvotes while I'm asleep, Americans have lost the meaning of another word, probably due to their media.

Though, just checking, the American dictionaries seem entirely correct still. Are you all confused?

[–] postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Its the way the wealthy wamt the poor and middle class - undereducated and bombarded by agenda driven media.

The US propaganda machine is pretty damn effective domestically.

[–] saltesc@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I think you're right. It's not like anything's changed, so people are obviously buying someone's bullshit from somewhere and it's working exactly as the seller intends.

Going to have start signalling when talking about the two different concepts, like...

Today I'd like to discuss liberalism.

vs

Today I'd like to discuss 🛻🇺🇸LIBeralism™🎸🦅

Since they're almost entirely opposing concepts sharing the same word.

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[–] archomrade@midwest.social 8 points 6 months ago

Like I said, it's fine assuming your own definition if that's the one most familiar to you, but that doesn't mean you have to stubbornly double down on semantics when confronted with a competing definition. When used derisively from the left it is almost certainly being used in the original sense of the word as per John Locke

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 6 months ago

Liberalism has never meant "leftism in general." It has always been an ideology supporting the individual via private property rights. Neoliberalism is the modern form of it.

Liberalism was considered left when feudalism was right, but liberalism has never meant leftism.

[–] Andrzej@lemmy.myserv.one 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm sorry but this is just flat out wrong in the way that only an American can be wrong

[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 5 points 6 months ago

Thanks for your input. I learned a lot.

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[–] menemen@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (3 children)

This discussion is funny from a German pov, as our main local liberal party (the FDP) is pretty right wing and has been so since the 1940s. "Liberalism" always had a quite neative connotation to me therefore. They are also the party most open to working together with the far right (the AFD).

Liberalism can be right wing or left wing. It makes more sense to structure the political specrum like this. But even that is far from prefect.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Liberalism can be right wing or left wing.

Eh. Its traditionally in that "economically conservative, socially liberal" pocket, wherein you can do whatever you want so long as you've got enough passive income.

Fascists tend toward a more rigid social caste system (ideologically) wherein being rich isn't enough to save you from state violence. That's a big part of its popular appeal, particularly when liberal institutions decay into kleptocracies.

Traditional Marxism tends toward the social egalitarianism that fascists can't stomach (race mixing, gender equality, and worker internationalism) while advocating full public ownership that liberal rent-seekers can't stomach.

So, in the modern political spectrum, liberals tend to be "centrists" who use their economic influence to rent out social egalitarianism. Fascists tend to be "right wing", advocating for those same private entities to purge themselves of unpopular social groups. And Marxists tend to be "left wing", advocating for an abolition of rents and a full egalitarian economy.

But if you go back a century (or move over to a country that's more left or right leaning) the colonial era monarchies and theocracies end up forming the right-wing pole, while fascists join liberals at the social center, and Marxists join a much more lively native anarchist community that's in its last-gasp efforts to resist colonial occupation.

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[–] orrk@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

that's because liberalism in Europe is mainly "liberty" for rich people to do what they want

[–] Tryptaminev@lemm.ee 12 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Isn't it the same in the US though? They still don't have universal healthcare or basic worker protection like protecting women from being fired over giving birth.

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