this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024
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    Is there something you lack in Wayland but have in xorg? (lemmy.world)
    submitted 10 months ago by Waffelson@lemmy.world to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
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    [–] okamiueru@lemmy.world 0 points 10 months ago (1 children)

    I don't know about all of those. Not sure if you downvoted me, in which case you might have the predisposition of not giving a shit. In which case I'd be most happy to oblige.

    As for the technical implementations / shortcomings, I... don't really care about it. The reason I didn't use Wayland before was because things didn't work. The reasons why I don't use X11 now, is because things occasionally stop working. The reason why I still sometimes use X11, is that unless I do so, some specific software doesn't work. That's the frame of mind I have, and I don't have any allegiance or vested interest beyond that. You seem to have that, and that's great. Caring about the technical details has my respect.

    So as for the stuff you mention that is directly user-facing:

    • Screen recording used to be a problem, haven't had that issue recently. OBS records my screens and part of it, just fine.
    • Window sharing like you could with X11 with ssh -X is amazing, and doesn't work, but it's been about 15 years since I used it.
    • Crashes that completely freeze my computer. Doesn't happen in Wayland. Happens in X11 (it's not a kernel panic, but whatever it is, I have to reboot, end result is the same to me).
    • Have had no issues with any of the monitors I own.
    • Global hotkeys work, and have always worked, for me. If it didn't, I simply wouldn't use Wayland, as a lot of my workflows surround tools I have built and trigger with global hotkeys.
    • Sleep mode, I don't use. Is that the same as Hibernation?
    • I don't use a single appimage, but I downloaded one to try now, and it worked fine.
    • What is redshift?
    • "Windows can't raise themselves or keep themselves raised", does this mean to request to be in focus? I'm curious which programs benefit from this.
    • sudo is insecure by default in Wayland? How come? I'd be interested to know how it has anything to do with wayland/x11. unless you mean GUI applications executed with sudo, not having access to wayland stuff?
    [–] ysjet@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

    The reason I care about the technical implementation shortcomings is because they don't go away. They don't magically fix themselves over time, they snowball, especially when the maintainers refuse to admit they're shortcomings and insist on doubling down on them.

    As time goes on, new functionality and technologies are going to emerge, and you need to be able to fold those, cleanly and reliably, into your codebase. And frankly, wayland's devs are having trouble getting past and even current technologies implemented cleanly into their codebase, because they're made architectural decisions that exclude those technologies. This is just going to be more and more of a problem as time goes on, imo.

    • Screen recording CAN work... if client devs go out of their way to work around wayland, like OBS did. That is not a long term solution, or even a solution we should be encouraging.
    • yes
    • personally I have crashes on wayland, none on X11. even when x11 does crash though, you just drop to terminal. Whatever is locking your system up, it might not actually be X11 itself. Wayland, you do actually have to reboot, it's a standing architectural issue.
    • nice
    • I'm on ubuntu gnome w/ AMD gpu, and they straight up do not work. You can set a global hotkey for the OS/wayland itself, but there is no way to set a global hotkey for/from a program, e.g. set a key combo for 'clip last 30 seconds' like I can in X11. Again, conscious design decision by wayland devs that breaks a lot of use cases. I think there's some third party plugin for wayland that fixes this, but I shouldn't need the wayland equivalent of nexusmods to get my window manager working. This ain't skyrim. :P
    • sleep and hibernate are pretty close to the same thing- sleep mode saves your current state to RAM, hibernate stores it to disk. hibernate uses less power draw and recovers cleanly from power loss. These days I think most front-ends call 'hibernate' sleep, and don't actually provide sleep as an option, because it's imo better. I meant hibernate, and I should have clarified, because linux does actually allow you to pick and choose.
    • some appimages work, but it's because they work around wayland. These days there's a package you can include in your app image to hep with that iirc, but again that's kind of dumb.
    • redshift is f.lux. Basically, eye strain relief.
    • toolbars, utilities, etc. For example, I have a program that adds an overlay to my screen for discord, so when someone talks in discord their avatar pops up on the left side of my primary screen. This not only doesn't work in wayland, it can never work in wayland, because it intentionally refuses to allow programs to set their own screen position, control whether they appear over other things, or even know where on the screen they are on the screen.
    • GUI applications with sudo, yes. Basically, in wayland sudo has to pipe the password arround because it doesn't support SUDO_ASKPASS, so they work around it by piping it around with a generated shell. This vastly increases the attack surface of sudo: https://github.com/linuxhw/hw-probe-pyqt5-gui/commit/eb2d6e5145fb8571414bda57676084b7f13b94e5#diff-23cb15995f1502beebb38433bfa83204a5f45b376eaf88e2e41a0d8a1cd44722R290
    [–] okamiueru@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago

    Thanks for the clarifications.

    I do hope it improves. I never understood why Wayland became a thing, if it's fundamentally flawed. But then, on the other hand, it's strange to not make the improvements in X11, unless that too is fundamentally flawed.