657
Trump claims he didn’t have ‘fair notice’ that Georgia actions could be illegal
(www.independent.co.uk)
this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
657 points (95.9% liked)
News
23259 readers
2686 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Firstly: of course he knew it was illegal.
Secondly: ignorance of the law does not give you immunity from breaking it
Third: he assumed no one was taping him committing said crime, if they had not done that he would have simply denied it and his cult would have accepted that lie, as always
Obviously you're right. That said, in the universe of Trump's fiction, it tracks (kind of). If the machines were rigged and if the election was stolen, then several things logically follow:
Trump's actions to retain power were not only justified, but also imperative, and very much within the scope of his duties as president, since he's the executive branch; while DOJ might normally handle the day to day, a stolen election is a big deal, and it makes sense he would step in. And therefore he would be immune to prosecution for any "law breaking."
If you're a superhero cop - not an actual, fat ass fascist bastard cop we have irl, but the kind of cop TV says is what cops are like, you don't have time for subpoenas and warrants -- you break down the doors and you grab the evidence. Maybe you're not even sure if there's a crime, but you can't risk it -- and if you're president, you can argue there's room for "better to ask for forgiveness than permission" in that context.
If you're not sure whether there's been a crime but there's a massive time pressure and extremely high stakes (as would be the case if the election was actually stolen), you would need to act as if there was a crime, since the consequences if there isn't pale in comparison to the consequences if there is. So: if you are the head of the executive branch, and you are concerned that there's a crime of that magnitude, you could easily make the case that you are duty bound to investigate.
So, the situation is this: if you investigate, and there's a crime, you've saved the world; if you investigate and there is no crime, then you will go to jail for it. That's a bit unfair -- so, a warning that, if you investigate this and there's no crime, then you're going to jail, might've been called for.
So -- if Trump was able to produce even a single piece of evidence to support his claims, the fiction he's established on top of them is arguable, and, if you start to look at his cases through that lens, his absurd motions and arguments kind of make sense.
To #1, the legal avenue is to bring this to the courts.
He did that and failed the effort. Spectacularly. Multiple times.
The courts determined that he lost, and that any further arguments were frivolous.
It should also be noted he was saying the election was stolen before the polls ever opened, so, there’s that.
Nope this doesn't follow. It would just mean that both actions would be equally illegal. There is no provision in law for one to break the law in order to remedy breaking the law.
This actually basically never applies in real life. In real life we let the criminal off rather than incentivize breaking the law by declaring evidence so gained as fruits of a poisonous tree.
In the almost mythical stereotypical ticking time bomb scenario where morality can only be served by breaking the law the right thing after the bomb is diffused is to attempt to punish both cop and criminal. The cop in that scenario isn't above the law their actions are a willing sacrifice of their own well being in service of a higher good.
He did investigate. There were 60 some cases including in GA. There was a recount and so forth. None of this was a crime.
The crime was threatening the SOS and trying to get the SOS or other officials to "fix" the election after he lost. The crime was getting fake electors to swear on lawful papework that they were lawfully chosen electors.
None of this is even slightly legit. It is as obviously illegal as dealing heroin or hiring a contract killer. Nobody is required to discern the nature of your criminal conspiracy and warn you that you are plotting to commit a crime.
I think though that (using your argument: given the severity/importance of the claim if true) there's even more necessity that you produce even circumstantial evidence to justify suspicion of a crime before making the accusation.
Similar to how cops are supposed to show probable cause before detaining or pulling you over, etc.
Given that he couldn't even come close to producing any kind of evidence, even flimsy evidence, and there's verifiable proof of him pressing election officials and others to illegally alter or create votes to back up his claim, I think it's clear that he knew very well there was no truth to his claims.
This is religion's fault. Fuckin magical thinking's all the average american is capable of. The bill for the 80s has come due