An oldie, but a goodie
this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
1479 points (91.9% liked)
linuxmemes
21601 readers
877 users here now
Hint: :q!
Sister communities:
Community rules (click to expand)
1. Follow the site-wide rules
- Instance-wide TOS: https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
- Lemmy code of conduct: https://join-lemmy.org/docs/code_of_conduct.html
2. Be civil
- Understand the difference between a joke and an insult.
- Do not harrass or attack members of the community for any reason.
- Leave remarks of "peasantry" to the PCMR community. If you dislike an OS/service/application, attack the thing you dislike, not the individuals who use it. Some people may not have a choice.
- Bigotry will not be tolerated.
- These rules are somewhat loosened when the subject is a public figure. Still, do not attack their person or incite harrassment.
3. Post Linux-related content
- Including Unix and BSD.
- Non-Linux content is acceptable as long as it makes a reference to Linux. For example, the poorly made mockery of
sudoin Windows. - No porn. Even if you watch it on a Linux machine.
4. No recent reposts
- Everybody uses Arch btw, can't quit Vim, and wants to interject for a moment. You can stop now.
Please report posts and comments that break these rules!
Important: never execute code or follow advice that you don't understand or can't verify, especially here. The word of the day is credibility. This is a meme community -- even the most helpful comments might just be shitposts that can damage your system. Be aware, be smart, don't fork-bomb your computer.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
For sure. It's funny in a way, but this is not a great way to treat folks that are trying to contribute, often on their own time. This could have been rephrased in so many other ways where Linus doesn't come off as a total jerk, and still be "right" with the same message.
This is a message to an @redhat address, as you might notice. Mauro gets paid to work on the kernel and is not a noob who doesn't know better, either, he's a maintainer who fucked up basic maintenance.
Neat.
Linus could also be kinder.
I just wish for all of us to become more accustomed to working on ourselves instead of projecting the need to develop virtue on others. Linus actually did it, doesn't mean that he was an asshole before. Brash, sure, crass, yes, but actual assholes don't calm down as easily.
I kindly disagree with most of what you said. Linus is brilliant, and I appreciate his contributions not just to technology and freedom but also to society. However, this does not pardon the hardships he has also brought upon others.
It's important to be honest in code reviews, but his language, while also honest, goes far and beyond that. We're doing ourselves a disservice defending this behavior as if it's a standard of communication quality that people should strive for, or learn how to behave like.
Current-day Linus wouldn't react much differently. Cut the "shut the fuck up", the one or other "fuck" (but not all, some need to be there for emphasis), done. It's the real personal shit, the "should be aborted retroactively" stuff, that he cut out. "Obvious garbage and idiocy" is a technical term, programmers apply it to their own work all the time. Compilers are more technical in their language but we know what they mean.
And was this mail, seen in its total impact, a hardship? He went down hard, yes, and thousands upon thousands of Linux users breathed a sigh of relief, seeing that Mauro's attitude towards userland doesn't fly.
The hardest-hitting sentence in that mail is actually "You have shown yourself to not be competent in this issue". Absolutely devastating. Taking context into account it's the equivalent of telling a professional cook that their ingredients suck, what they did with them sucks, and most of all that the gall which which they claimed that the customer is wrong about their dinner sucking is completely, and utterly, unprofessional.
Of course that's hard on Mauro. There's no way to tell someone about such an epic cock-up without being hard. But not going that far, avoiding that hardship for some notion of civility, now that would be right-out cruel.
Please defend these statements for me. I'm having a hard time understanding how this is language we should strive for in a code review, even with your explanation.
Additionally, if you can give me any pointers on how I can communicate this way, I'm all ears and would appreciate the help.
It's not a code review. Mauro was gaslighting userspace devs, pretending that kernel bugs he introduced were their fault, and at the end of it all he agrees with Linus.
As to tone: How is "this is not up for discussion" and "obvious mistakes and thoughtlessness" any better? As a reader I'd be inclined to think that you think of me as having the emotional maturity of a toddler.
I believe that excellent communication can be had without engineers swearing at each other, and I don't think there are is any good rationale that warrants such behavior. You believe that there is a time and purpose for the style of conversation that Linus portrayed, and it is warranted and effective behavior.
I'm going to agree to disagree from here. Thanks for the conversation.
For one, the boss setting the tone as to include "shut up" means that you won't get written up for responding in a similar register. It allows for emotionality, instead of burdening the recipient of the dress-down not just with addressing their own behaviour, but also the emotional labour to respond in a way the tone police deems acceptable. Maybe paradoxically (for people lacking emotional intelligence), that makes emotional responses less likely as the recipient isn't as emotionally boxed in, doesn't see walls in every direction.
The line that you shouldn't cross is making things personal -- talking about what someone (presumably) is, instead of what they did. But that applies to any register, "Please come to HR to discuss your identity" isn't someone anyone should ever hear. Persons can be demeaned and belittled, but not behaviour: Behaviour doesn't have emotions, dignity, whatever.
No one is arguing that Linus isnt a total jerk.
Just like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and even Ol Musky...
We can be better. We can both be a community that is extremely direct with our core values and code it well, but we can also treat people right.
It's a reality in many places. And it's thanks to the many many many assholes that I listed above that brought this change.
Not sure those three names belong in the same list.