For context: The thread was about why people hate Hexbear and Lemmygrad instances
this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2023
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Mildly Infuriating
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I've always found it odd why we don't treat communism in the same vein as Nazism.
They're both horrific ideologies that have led to the deaths of millions, but one is considered trendy.
They are radically different but authoritarians have corrupted both to be the same brute force regime. Communism shouldn't have any specific single leader. It should be a conference of lots of little communities that participate together to make a state work. Sadly authoritarian ideals corrupt politics and make people want to rule that should never be leaders in the first place. Those leaders install their own friends who run the government into the ground - and it's the government model that is to blame?
communism has somehow become synonymous with marxism-leninism, it's very sad
The .ml suffix isn't helping
well, .com was already taken so 🤷.
You are spot on on just about everything. The only thing I take issue with is saying that both werr corrupted by authoritarians. Fascism doesn't exist without authoritarians. It's just a shame that in America, especially as well as plenty of other places in the west, we are miseducated if we are educated at all on the subject.
I think there is a model of fascism that, when a dictator is removed from the scenario, looks like a corporate autocracy. Late stage capitalism, like a corporate Cyberpunk dystopia, is what happens when power isn't seized by a megalomaniac. Unfortunately corporations are documented to gather the psychotically inclined within its upper echelons so any and all rulings are definitely going to be corrupted. At least communism allows voting for leaders and not private decisions without review like private enterprise.
That still ends up with local dictators and oligarchs. Yes, you're not likely to end up with one global dictator etc. but ultimately would not be all that different in the long run. It's exactly what they want a return to. Feudalism.
I think fascism, actual theoretical fascism (like untainted communism), removed from the realities of human psychology, would be a conglomeration of corporate states. The decision making is behind closed doors and leadership is decided by those on the inside of the corp, so still keeping the multilayered rights structure of fascism, but distinct in that those running the business would be able to also run the state without corporate influence.
Again, theoretical fascism is never going to happen because a business leader will steer the country to align their corporate interests instead of any public interest, but the idea is there. Fascism, uncorrupted by selfishness and greed, is a corporate state run by people who only answer to internal justice structures that are separate from public policy. But fascism is almost purpose built to give those who are least capable of thinking of others the ability to run those others' lives so harmful people will always run things.
Communism at least has a chance at public discourse, like democracy but more open to compromise. It's that compromise that is diametrically opposed to the unilateral decision making (without any public input) of fascism and authoritarians.
Yes, because it leaves itself so prone to authoritarian takeover. As I’ve said before, this is a feature of communism, not a bug. A single, one-party “transitional” government is intended. You might as well just put up a sign that says “Dictator Wanted.” This is why there isn’t a single instance of communism on a nation-state scale that hasn’t quickly devolved into an authoritarian state. It’s not hard to understand this. Your government model has to account for the reality that people are going to disagree on things and faction out. Your model has to be able to manage that process. Communism insists everyone adhere to the same ideology, and those that don’t just get “re-educated.” It’s a horrible ideology, a horrible government model; naïve utopian fantasy at best, cynical authoritarian scheme at worst.
There's no difference between them. That's the thing. Two words for the same pile of shit.
It's not "considered trendy", your understanding of communism – an economic system – is just conflated with authoritarianism – a political system. You can advocate for one without advocating for the other.
That said, capitalism also leads to the deaths of millions, but somehow that's just an unquestionable fact of life.
I honestly don't see how the idea of everyone getting an equal share is an extremist idea in the same vein as a racist ideology. I'm also unsure why you're being downvoted for pointing out the obvious there.
I agree.
Should I be labelled an extremist for being completely fine with, let's say, a completely democratic business structure, where workers have equal say? A public transport system owned by the people, to serve the people? An education system owned by teachers, allowing teachers to do their best, instead of being overworked and having to pay for classroom supplies at their own cost? Nowhere does it say we'd remove the options for people to use a car, or force them into a packed subway or whatever, and nobody claims it would be a magical perfect system that solves all issues. But somehow the mere idea is extremist 🤯
This idea being conflated/confused with an authoritarian leadership style also causes a lot of problems IMO
Oh gee if only there was a single example of communists that actually acted on some of these purported principles instead of turning authoritarian the first chance they get
No, social democracies don’t count. They are what tankies SHOULD strive for, instead of sucking off… checks notes famous beacons of liberty Russia and China.
Ok.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_Nepal
Perhaps it's us greedy humans that's the issue and the economic model only limits how completely we can fuck things up. Badly when it's capitalism and really badly with communism.
Citation needed.
Every single person who's died of hunger
Wait until you read about communist famines.
Those were not on purpose. But were definitely made worse through the actions of dogmatic uneducated authoritarians much like capitalism. However, the fact that it happened to leninists involuntarily doesn't justify capitalist doing it purposefully.
Holodomor
It wasn't man-made lol. There were famines going on in the United States too. Dust bowl anyone? And I said they exacerbated it. You simply proved my own point for me and failed to state your case.
Let me give you some advice on debating or trying to discuss things. You should refrain from it.
Holy shit you tankies are on so much copium it’s hilarious.
The dust bowl and the holodomor did not, in fact, coincide. They occured in seperate years, for separate reasons, and shockingly you seem to have excluded the drastically lower death rates of the dust bowl and the american great depression as a whole? It was terrible and caused great unnecessary suffering, but there’s no parallel to the intentional deaths of millions.
Like come on, the Bengal famine is RIGHT THERE for you to make some sort attempt at a valid argument, but you just have to go “AMERIKA BAD >:(“ every two milliseconds.
Both the Bengal Famine and the Holodomor have at least one major fact in common. You’d have to be a complete idiot to be either the British or Soviet government and not realize your response will lead to the deaths of millions. I don’t think Churchill or the brits were idiots, and as undeniably terrible as Stalin was I don’t think the inevitable death of millions of ukranians was something he could overlook either.
You mouth breathers always act so goddamn smug about the utter nonsense spewing out of your ass.
Lol no wrong like confidently wrong. I'm further from a tankie than you are. In fact, it's not possible to get much farther from tankie than someone like myself. I'm simply pointing out your ignorant bullshit. To which you can't defend. I'd be incensed. But there's no point. And I'm used to kiddies like yourself. Learning a new term like tanky and then just going crazy using it against everyone you don't like.
I literally pointed out that they made their part of the GLOBAL famine worse. Promoting and listening to Trofim Lysenko's crackpot theories. I'm not defending them. Just calling your bs strawman out. And again I reiterate letting people starve because it's more profitable, is far more damning than ignorant leninists being stupid.
I see so many of these attitudes (whether correct or not. I'm not here to argue) and it just makes Lemmy an awful place to try and enjoy my free time.
You guys make reddit look palatable, let that sink in.....
Should I call you a fascist and see how friendly you are? I don't think you are. And I'm not going to. But when someone pulls stupid shit like that. It doesn't actually contribute in anyway towards any sort of civil debate. And funny that your admonishing me and not him as well. Also, extra funny. Because that sort of shit is way worse on Reddit. Sooooooooo okay.
Yeah mate go nuts, I've been called plenty worse just today and been amused by it.
I am talking to both of you, your comment just happened to be the last in the chain.
I read the argument and thought "jesus fuck this place is basically unbearable".
Honestly I've seen plenty worse on reddit too, but also SO much better. There are obviously loads more users so the worst is worse than the worst here, and the best is better than the best here. The point I'm making is that the average interaction here is worse than reddit, that famously circlejerky echo chamber hivemind. Yet if I don't fit the mould of a lemmy user it seems I'm a villain 80% of the time so that description could just as validly be levelled at lemmy too.
An argument descends to ad-hominem attacks so unbelievably fast so unbelievably frequently. It really is no surprise users are dropping like flies at the moment and I feel I might be another one soon enough.
Not that you care, I hope you have a nice day regardless, take care :) x
Like I said. I'm not here to defend leninists. I disagree with them vehemently. I disagree with all authoritarians vehemently. They absolutely tend to dive into adhominems immediately in many instances. Not always, but far too often. It's kind of what you do when you can't actually defend your viewpoints. Doesn't really bother me though. I'm used to it from all over. As a social-libertarian I get called a fascist by many leninists, and a Leninist/tankie by fascists.
For myself though things have been far better over here than they ever were on Reddit. Perhaps that's because of my more natural left lean? That was always something viewed as negative on a site like Reddit.
Like I said, I'm not interested in the debate. Just pointing out the horrible discourse that is seen way too often here.
"They" who dive into adhominems includes you too bud, just from the last couple comments you made in this argument you said the following:
Just a straight up nasty adhominem attack
This one is interesting because the whole cause is debated (though generally you're on what most scholars consider the wrong side, whether that's right or not I have no idea or interest though). But you state your point like it's a black and white fact, when it largely depends on your own opinion of which sources you trust. >
Another adhominem attack, "lol child! I don't have to take anything you say seriously"
Honestly just pretty shitty discussion all around, from both sides.
Reddit is pretty far left too mate, less than here because it's a bigger pool of people that doesn't hound anyone (not as badly anyway) who doesn't fit the classic mould of the "typical user", but overall left nonetheless.
I think what you've discovered is that lemmy is more of an echo chamber for YOUR beliefs than reddit was, and people enjoying feeling like their opinions are validated and praised, so you've had a better time here but you may not be more informed (arguably less, as fewer people are challenging your thinking).
Have a nice day anyway mate :) x
For someone uninterested you sure are interested.
Their argument was not adhominem. Wow! They did call out the other person for misrepresenting facts and being disingenuous/ bad faith. But that's not on the same level. One of the mildest ad hominem's possible.
At this point you are as guilty as anyone else about the very thing you're crying about.
No scholars do not agree that the dust bowl or any of the famines in Asia or Europe were man-made. Nor have they ever stated that to be the case. As Eldritch said. They were absolutely exacerbated by human actions. But we're not man-made.
The platform you are crying on exist for the very fact that Reddit is heavily right wing leaning. You are wildly wrong.
Uninterested in the argument itself bud, happy to discuss the awful methods used in their arguments though. I literally checked the wiki page to even know what holodomor was, that's how little I know and I'm not interested enough to debate with people that seem to argue with spittle flying from their mouths.
The first sentence is "While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made, whether the Holodomor constitutes a genocide remains in dispute." Wikipedia is hardly a rock solid source of course, but obviously there is some debate, so it really doesn't seem like a black and white argument as stated. But as I said, I'm really not interested in debating that. I'm literally just pointing out the toxic arguments that happen here so unbelievably frequently.
Advising someone that they should refrain from debating full stop is just cunty behaviour, however right or wrong the person they're attacking was. Attack the argument, not the person.
I'm very happy to be wildly wrong in your eyes mate, it makes no difference at all to me and people's perceptions are their own to have. Reddit has some right wing subs obviously, it's a platform with hundreds of millions of users and allows for easy engagement. People of all sorts will use it but show me someone claiming its heavily right wing and I'll show you 10 more who believe it's heavily left wing. In fact just ask Google if its right wing and most results will be along the lines of "why is reddit so left wing?"
I will say that I thoroughly appreciate the tone and structure of your arguments though (maybe with the exception of accusing me of crying, that does let it down somewhat). It's exactly that structure or argument which I feel is missing all too often and at the very least when I read your comment it didn't sound like you were bright red with anger. So thanks for that :) x
You said it yourself. You don't know what you're talking about here. And despite your continuing ad hominem's and antagonism. I will take one last moment to point out that the use of the term is scholarly and meant to be taken in context. And not colloquially or in layman's terms. It was no more man-made than the dust bowls were in the US. Or any of the other droughts and famines throughout the rest of the world in the exact same times. Saying they were man-made is like claiming that all global warming is man-made. It's not completely. But man is making it worse. But we are also in a natural global warming trend. Context is important. Eldritch is 100% of correct in this instance. They've correctly stated multiple times the human activity made it worse. Which is what the scholarly consensus is. Their only major mistake was engaging those who were disingenuous, smarmy, and or bad faith. Same mistake I made
Also, it's not what I think. But thank you for telegraphing your bad faith. The people who wrote the software stack. Literally have stated many places many times stated the reason directly.
I'll side any day with someone passionately espousing the truth, over someone who calmly lies
END ENGAGEMENT
Absolutely mate, I don't know shit about it at all and really am not interested, I feel like I made that pretty clear. But anyone claiming something is 100% fact in a debate without having actual proof is arguing in bad faith, because they're literally engaged in a debate, if it's 100% fact there is no debate, it would have been proven and anything else becomes conspiracy. The fact that Wikipedia actually says man made means there is some debate.
They might be bang right, but not acknowledging any amount of doubt when it clearly exists (unless they are holding back the proof that they haven't shared with the world for whatever reason) is bad discussion.
I'm totally with you there bud, there's a big difference between passion and anger though. One might win people round to your side, the other will only ingratiate you to people already on your side.
You'd have to do alot of explaining if you claimed global warming wasn't manmade too, at that point you'd just be arguing definitions.... Whether that's the definition of what constitutes global warming or the definition of when something becomes manmade.
Good talk :) x
See what you just wrote there. Every single person. That is so utterly ridiculous thing to say.
I think they were adding that anyone who has starved under these regimes should be counted in the needless deaths alongside the genocides
Would you also require a citation that the sun is very hot? The sky blue?
Because one of them promoted racial superiority in its main book, while the other equally hated everyone? Do your research!
I completely understand where you are coming from, but you got to realize that that concept of communism has been warped by western propaganda and selective education.
People hungry for power will use what ever ideology appeals to the people to gain power. Look at Donald Trump. He was historically a Democrat from New York uninterested in politics. He ran as a Democrat the first time but made no headlines. He switched parties and started talking pro-christian rhetoric. He is very obvious no Christian.
You see it with "Protect the children" anti-abortion groups. Who have no interest in actually protecting children. Groups that target trans people with the same stance have no interest in actually protecting children. Groups who are say they want to stamp out pedophilia use it to target privacy laws.
And you have groups like Nazis and Lenist who used socialism and communism as a means to an end. Those groups used those movements to consolidate power and wealth to the 1%, and used violence against others as a way to ensure their continued control, they were neither communist or socialist in practice, only in their speech.
Communism is always dictated by a few and causes harm to many. In order for communism to work you need to stop the flow of information as education makes people want to pursue there own goals at the expense of everyone else.
You talk of corrupting power but I've never heard of google wanting to kill.
Communism is literally not dictated by the few. Communism is anarchist in that there are literal no leaders. What you are thinking of is leninism, where a group of few used the ideas of socialism and communism to hoard power and money, spread misinformation, and destroy education. Because educated people don't like authoritarian leadership.
Like how in the USA, education has been villianized by the right in their propaganda. They cut funding to public education. They remove what books can be found in libraries. They can keep people ignorant of ideas they find threatening to their power structures. Such as socialist and communism ideals. Any book that talks of breaking down the hierarchy is considered a threat.
Well they're considered just as fringe group by pretty much everyone else except for the people subscribing to it. Ofcourse they'll soon rush to tell you how their idea of communism is different and will actually lead to utopia but just imagine a neo-nazi trying that same argument.
It would do you a lot of good to actually read about communism and political theory in general instead of acting as a conduit of brain rot.
Personally I'd rather listen to the history of my country, than to the random people on the internet, that have nothing to do with communism, saying "it's totally going to work this time bruh"