I am so so divided on if I should vote for biden or not. I wanna vote third party to at least do something or should I just stay home and protest and advocate where I can? Thoughts?
this post was submitted on 10 Nov 2023
470 points (82.3% liked)
Solarpunk
5463 readers
30 users here now
The space to discuss Solarpunk itself and Solarpunk related stuff that doesn't fit elsewhere.
Join our chat: Movim or XMPP client.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I was gonna make this a reply, but I guess it fits as a general comment.
There will always be some excuse to maintain the status quo.
In the USA people say it's because of "first past the post"(*). But in Portugal there is no such thing. We have a parliamentary system (technically semi-presidential, but for practical purposes parliamentary) but somehow people still find an excuse to always maintain the status quo. Since we've been a democracy (49 years), only two parties have ever been in power. Before the last elections, we had 9 parties in parliament. After several decades of incompetence, and everyone complaining about how corrupt the system and politicians are, the same party won the last elections with a majority vote, and now we have 8 parties in parliament. Basically, we're not too far from a two-party system.
This happens because there's always some excuse to compromise; in my country, the excuse/logic to rally behind the centrists and put them in power is something like "look how much the extreme right is growing, we have to keep them at bay! Plus, the other parties are probably as bad and corrupt anyway!", with the expression "useful vote" thrown around a lot. Never mind the fact the far right are growing due to the incompetence of the people currently in power, and that, being a parliamentary system, a vote for any non-right wing party already works to keep the right at bay. And the cherry on top is how everyone gas lits themselves with "the other parties that never had any power are probably as bad and corrupt as the parties that have been in power for decades and which we know for a fact are bad and corrupt".
This isn't very eloquently written, but hopefully the point comes across: some people always expect you to "compromise" with them by doing exactly what they want, while they don't compromise at all; and some people create a self full fulling prophecy by convincing themselves from the start that there are no other options. I can't speak 100% for the USA because I don't understand the system as well, but at least in my country the reality is that if everyone actually voted for the people they most align with, we could still keep the right at bay and not put all the power in the hands of the "moderates".
(*)but, unless I am massively mistaken, if a third party gets enough votes they will still get seats in parliament which should still give them power, or at least still take power away from another.
Portugal has a weird system, which is not quite first past the post and not quite proportional. Basicly it is having election districts with multiple members, which then get elected using de Hondt, which is a proportional system. Some districts only have three seats and that basicly means only the biggest parties can actually win them, as you need a third of the vote for each seat.
Hence two massive parties from all the smaller districts and a few minor ones from the larger ones. As Portual does not have a proportional election system.
Anyway imho the right call is to vote for the party, which is going to deliver the best results for you and that can mean voting taktically. However learn how your elections system works. That really matters.
Right, but the point still stands that voting tactically just reinforces the status quo.
Two examples from the last election:
Lisbon, which gets to decide 48 of the seats (the most):
PS (currently leading party) won 21 of the 48 seats in Lisbon. If half their voters actually spread their votes amongst the left, the second-largest party (PSD) would still have only got 13, the IL party 4, and the far right party 4. The power of the right would not have changed, but PS would only have 10 while the left would be a lot more powerful, and we would not have been subjected to a majority victory from PS.
Portalegre, which gets to decide 2 of the seats (the least):
PS won both, with 47% of the votes. PSD won 0 with 23%. In this scenario, if half of the PS votes went to the left, then PS would still have 1, and PSD would also have got 1 - hardly a change on the surface, but the result is that people could look at it and see the other left parties also have some decent representation, maybe it's not crazy to vote for them and they are a viable alternative. Instead, because the votes went all to PS, everyone is now engaged in a self-fulfilling prophecy: "I should vote for PS! Why? Because they're the closest party to the left with a change of winning. Why? Because everyone always votes for PS.".
And that's how you end up with the same two parties in power for 49 years, while everyone is always complaining about how much they suck the whole time and that nothing changes: "We have to vote for X, because not X doesn't have a change of winning, because we're always voting for X; also, not X would probably be just as corrupt and incompetent as X because I'm just guessing they are". I've been hearing that logic since I was a child - the words and rhetoric are ingrained in my brain, and every time I hear the word "elections" the voices pop up in my head.
Portugal is soooooo much more progressive than the USA, and I'm willing to bet that having something a lot closer to actual democracy than they do is part of the reason.
I think you're misunderstanding the effect of not having FPTP. It's not that you get rid of FPTP and suddenly the mainstream party loses power - not at all, but rather what happens is that they see first hand how close they are to losing power by the number of people casting their primary votes elsewhere. That means they are forced to cater their policies at least a little bit toward all those people, and it ends up having a real meaningful impact on their platform. Whereas in the US, the FPTP system rewards Democrats not for following the wills of the most people, but rather for just being very slightly less right wing than the Republicans, because that way they'll scoop up the votes of everyone to the left of them, regardless how far left.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Americans who think companies don't pay enough, housing price is too high, fuel is too expensive, etc., would be shocked to see how bad it is in Portugal. You can have a degree in CS and go work as a Software Engineer, and you still won't have enough money to rent a home in the city. After a few years, if you manage to get some raises (good luck), you'll maybe have enough for a small flat.
Health care is much cheaper than the US, but that doesn't mean much when there are no doctors or nurses, and maternity wards start closing down.
We have people who are unqualified to teach having to teach school classes because there is no one else available; also some teachers have to live in their cars because they can't afford a home in the area they teach.
I could keep naming things. And progressive in what way? Drugs are decriminalized, but that's not the same as legal, and it's still illegal to sell weed unlike in the US. Both the US and Portugal have had same sex marriage and adoption for years now. And I also don't think trans rights are much better in Portugal than in the US; so I'm not entirely sure in what way it's more progressive, to be honest.
And this is not to mention all the government scandals we've had in the last 15 years; probably the same or more as the US, you just don't hear about it because it's not the US.
But to get back to the point:
No they're not, trust me. Source: the reason for our last elections. Or how we've (the people, through taxes) had to sink a ridiculous amount of money into a national airliner that made no money, and recently when it seemed to be turning a profit after decades, they began to talk about privatizing it, which is something the right had been demanding for a long time now.
If you always vote for someone, they have no incentive to do anything for you; they know they get your vote anyway. If you don't vote for them, then they have an incentive to try and appeal to you in order to get your vote.