I mean... I kinda get it, but nowadays it's starting to get absurd.
(EDIT: This was supposed to be a "blow air out my nose and get on with my life" meme...)
this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2025
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these are the reasons I think this happens:
edit: reworked comment into bulleted list instead of run-on sentence
I would love to discuss this with anyone that's willing. If their government is as awful and fucked up as everyone says why does the average Chinese citizen generally have a better life than the average American in their respective societal totem pole (in cities specifically) ?
They have far more purchasing power for food, rent. Their healthcare is affordable. While censorship is a thing towards certain topics, there certainly isn't a lack of discussion. They have far better public transit systems, far more parks, and public utilities, absolute ownership (no property tax).
To me it seems we're continuously demonizing the lives of those we don't understand who are actually far better off than most of us in the states.
I lived and worked outside Shanghai for a bit, but it was a while ago and probably has changed a good bit. What makes you think their lives are far better off than those in the states?
Not necessarily disagreeing, but it absolutely was not the case 15 years ago. American life is on a downhill though, zero argument there.
Right now I look at my life in the late 20s in the states and even despite having a well paying tech job, I will have to sacrifice everything in my life in order to have a family or even own a house and those two are exclusive of each other. Although not in deep debt, I've definitely had to pay my fair share towards medical and student debt.
I'm watching critical infrastructure projects that could impact so many people take 30 years to build.
The amount of homeless we see on the streets is our own governmental failure and the increased crime associated with it. Seeing what I see in US streets really can wear an empathetic person down, it's a cruel world here.
Our diet and price to eat healthy in the US is continuously worsening (yes this is a choice to an extent but also a cultural problem that grows over time)
And even though it's absolutely recency bias, the deportation of Latinos does not strike confidence in me given my heritage.
I do think China has changed a lot in the last 15-30 years, and don't get me wrong I don't think it's a perfect life, I understand there's an infinite amount of competition for well paying jobs, and housing prices are extremely high (albeit not as high relative to ours). But when you show me how China has effectively succeeded at each of these topics compared to our own governmental failures that I experience on the daily, it makes me question my own life here and why people immediately criticize China without nuance.
I do feel for you, I know life in the US has gotten much worse recently and I feel that's accelerating.
I'm not so sure life in China is better per se, but it is different.
I will probably blanket statement this and say life in the EU seems a lot better than in the US now, though with plenty of problems depending on where you go. I say this as someone who left the US for the EU.
The entire country tried to revolt in 1989 and millions of citizens were killed by their own military. People who speak out lose access to most services and can't even sign up for online platforms.
Right now China is experiencing a massive homelessness crisis because their assigned homes aren't in the places they live and work.
Literally nobody claims that millions died, that's flat earth levels of alternate reality.
What?
B-but rent prices in LA!
What happened in 1984?
What the fuck are you talking about
China
What in the massive misinformation clusterfuck is happening in your brain?
Do people still use Jim Crowe laws to talk about the daily life of US citizens? These are 40-60 year old discussion that do not adequately describe what life is like to the average citizen today.
Yeah they have their own homeless issues, but imo having a homeless population who has a job and chooses not to return home vs one that has nothing is two very different situations and almost incomparable problems.
People do still talk about Jim Crowe laws, yes, and also the same singular party rules China today and they still regularly suppress protests with military especially in regions they more recently expressed complete authority over such as Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Tibet.
Why does every discussion around China devolve into this as if the US doesn't also do this?
Instead let's discuss how average Chinese citizen in Shanghai is doing compared to the average citizen in San Francisco and have a real discussion between the two countries and how their government impacts their life.
Why does every discussion about China also have to be about their many many enemies all over the world as a direct result of their opaque cruelty?
Why can't we just discuss what is wrong with China?
Because this exact statement can also be applied to the US? Which to be frank I'm all for talking about, the US probably has the most enemies in the world. But regardless this discussion is intended to be about the government impacts on their citizens.
Alright then go start a comment thread about it somewhere else. Good luck, don't forget to talk about black laws and Tulsa massacre.
Why would you even reply to begin with if you're only going to derail the conversation with no pertinent information and not discuss the topic at hand?
Me? I'm the one derailing conversation? You just told me to my face that you have a different conversation that you want to have rather than the conversation that you invited people to have.
Whatabout what about whatabout
What complete authority does the PRC have over Taiwan? Their position now is the same as its been for seventy years - they consider it part of their country but exercise no actual control over it.
They also aggressively censor and harass any claims that Taiwan is its own country.
Because the social contract of 21st century authoritarian societies is "We give you prosperity, you do politics through gov-approved channels." Punishment for dissent depends on how insecure the state feels right now.
On the plus side, the government cares about your prosperity. As long as it lasts, elites can divide power among themselves however they like.
On the minus -- society doesn't control its government (power transition happens by committee, not elections) and it can't force any kind of change when elites are against it. Modern states have so much repression power, they can shut down any activism when they don't mind bloodstains.
And when prosperity ends, the new contract will be "Do as we say and nobody gets tortured".
Is this only for well paying jobs like software engineering or is this also true for shittier service/factory style jobs?
Quite frankly, I think you're failing to see that a major part of American culture, a literal founding principle, is "live free or die". Americans are obviously not going to take that censorship as just a small downside.
Quality of life is less important than freedom.
This is also just a lie. They don't own land.
Pointing out Americans system of live free or dying to avert censorship while also repeating US propaganda about China is hilariously ironic
What happens to the land/house you own if you don't pay property tax in the US? Chinas 70 year lease is effectively a more solidified ownership than the US.
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
That's pure philosophy. I would argue that complete legal ownership is more ownership...
None of what I said was propaganda lmfao. Lease is just pure facts, and censorship is something that you'd have to be blind to think isn't real.
We, in fact, do own land. We just have an explicit contract with our government vs the implicit one people in the US have. Look into imminent domain seizures in the US.
Whatabout whatabout whatabout
Using comparisons to make a point is not whataboubtism, Mr. Shapiro.
...you know that a lease isn't ownership right?
Yes, they can take land you own... That doesn't mean you don't own it lol. Just because you can lose something doesn't mean you don't own it. And that's a lot more niche a situation then you're thinking it is
...the 'lease' is that you don't own it independent of the government, as in despite owning the land you're not your own country. You'll find this in every country, except in China it's spelled out. It has an expiration since, you know, China tends to reform itself over time. None have expired, and right now under current law none of them can expire, they are automatically renewed to the owner at the time of expiry, with the assumption the owner isn't going to commit treason.
Like the 'social credit score' nonsense you people made up, it's a gross misinterpretation of reality that you believe because you fundamentally believe Chinese people are different than you.
???? Fascist government vs democracy (fingers crossed we stay one) and you think there isn't a difference? Man you've been swallowing some serious propaganda. It's not about the people, it's about the government.
No, you won't. It's a different system. I'm not going to say it's a worse system, because it's not really, it's just a different system. But you need to recognize that it is substantially different. A lease is different from pure ownership. There's a lot less guarantees involved.
By no definition of fascism is China fascist. Reread your Eco.
The government is the people. A fifth of the Chinese public are cpc members. It costs nothing to join, there are no requirements besides being a citizen and not being a convicted traitor. Anyone can join and start voting and participating.
And again, no, it's not a different system. I get that you're angry you'll never own your home in the US, whereas 92% of Chinese adults over 21 own their own home, but that doesn't change reality. The 'lease' is that your land is under the Chinese government, not the US government or Russians government, and thus subject to the laws in China and can be revoked if you use your land in a revolution against China.
Every single country on earth has this clause. Every single one. China assigns it per deed, rather than an overarching law, because of the autonomous districts that have different leases, like Tibet or Xinjiang.
It's clear you've been extensively propagandized to think china isn't fascist. I'm not sure if I can discuss with someone who cannot see how their own country is run ...
The government is not the people .
... I'm on track to get one in 2 years.
...no
You're still ignoring how china can and has disappeared or block people from the country simply for expressing their views, and used "police forces" to enforce their laws upon citizens in other territories
And you call me propagandized... No, people in jail aren't disappeared because they lost their right to talk to the press. No, there is not a global network of secret police arresting Chinese people. No, China is not alone in blocking travel to their country for hate speech or other bigotry.
If you believe these things, and you seriously see no problem with them, you aren't able to speak on politics. It'd be like discussing consent with a Mormon or physics with a flat earther... I mean seriously, a global network of secret police stations in other countries? Complete control of the speech of 1,400,000,000 humans?
This is as ridiculous as the 'Jewish new world order' stuff a lot of you people believe
...no one ever said complete. You're intentionally exaggerating my statements into thing that are not to make them so more unrealistic than they actually are. I know your type.
Like this. Changing what I said into something else.
I'm calling you propagandized because you're going to deny the oppression of the uyghurs in your country. You're also just outright ignoring what happened in hong kong.
China is NOT the same.
Are black Americans oppressed in the US by being put in prison? Is it because they're black or because they're poor and thus more likely to need to do crime in order to survive?
If there were a solution that brought the entirety of black Americans out of poverty by locking up the most dangerous 10% of them after a jury trial and conviction until they were rehabilitated, while massively investing in majority black areas to ensure poverty is no longer a thing in those areas, would you do it?
This isn't whataboubtism, before you fail to report me for that.
Also Hong Kong was colonized until it was returned to China, it was never independent. I'm sorry white people lost their tax haven.
No, you're right, that isn't whataboutism.
It's a hypothetical about what did not happen to the chinese population.
Surely violently killing students is reasonable in light of that....
The students that stole police weapons and started shooting?
Are you fucking with me right now?