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I don't know how to word this any differently, so I think this conversation is just about done.
You keep bringing up how science says caffeine isn't "addicting" despite you yourself being the one to point out the DSM-V where they explicitly call the word out as not defined in the DSM-V. So for the fourth time: "addicting" is not a scientific term.
Just because it was preciously referenced in a 24+ year old version does not make it still scientifically relevant. It is not a scientific term any longer, and you can stop treating it like it is.
Meanwhile, in the DSM-V, caffeine is associated with withdrawal symptoms. Symptoms you yourself have described and experienced. So we can both agree caffeine use causes withdrawal.
So because (1) "addiction" is not a medical term and (2) caffeine causes withdrawal symptoms when usage is stopped it is therefore more than fair for people to define it as addicting in a nonscientific context like the one we're in. We should reference science, sure, but science has no opinion on whether caffeine is "addicting" because, again, it's not a scientific word.
Again, you're arguing semantics. This is arguing "gif" vs "jif" at this point. You've given up on medical sources like the DSM because they don't support you so now you are just doubling down with no basis in fact.
Hopefully, we see each other around on the Fediverse and maybe even have another discussion, but one that is more beneficial for us. This one seems to be just spinning our wheels. Good luck to you
You're arguing semantics. Sealioning to boot. Avoiding using the word 'addiction' is does not make it scientifically irrelevant. Numerous articles still use the word addiction in them because it is synonymous with SUD in the literature. Science says caffeine isn't addicting. Always has no matter what language you try to ignore. Recovery programs say caffeine isn't addicting, which is why it is served at their meetings. Society says caffeine isn't addicting otherwise it wouldn't allow children to consume it. People that have had at least 2nd hand experience with actual addiction think caffeine isn't addicting because JFC they KNOW better. The only ones that do are the ones that are truly ignorant of the reality. You still haven't shown anybody who's opinion is worth listening to that thinks caffeine is addicting and you won't be able to because they are Karens sitting at a brunch table playfully giggling about their lack of self control over their love for cafe mochas and that is not the level of conversation I am entertaining when someone seriously asks 'is X addicting?'.
You arguing badly (the DSM matters cause withdrawal is mentioned even though withdrawal is not the definition of addiction, but doesn't when SUD is. Religion shouldn't be listened to, but a bunch of ignorant people that agree with you have worthy opinions, etc...) that everything besides your opinion doesn't matter is a you problem.
You're right this conversation is over. I hope you never understand what it is actually like to be addicted to something because the life lesson you need to smarten you up about this is honestly too high a price for anyone to pay.
No the DSM-V did that
Science doesn't use the term, it is antiquated and no longer scientifically relevant. Science says that caffeine does not cause substance use disorders.
Numerous articles define caffeine as addictive as well
You're so close to understanding what I'm wanting from this thread and this conversation. Caffeine is a problematic drug that we take too lightly. I do not believe we should be giving it to children, nor do I believe adults should use it frequently.
But, to your point, society does say that caffeine is addicting (we're in a thread that is sufficient proof of that) but society agrees that the "addiction" is minor enough that it is not a big deal. I'm also sure many people would agree that sugar is addictive and yet we feed that to kids more than anyone else.
The "addictiveness" of one thing being more severe does not mean a less severe substance cannot also be "addictive". Because a gun only kills one person and nuclear warhead kills millions does not mean the gun cannot be described as lethal.
Because I don't work in opinions, I work in science. The DSM-V says (and I can't believe I'm stating this for a fifth time, I'll put it in capitalized letters to make sure you see it) ADDICTION IS NOT A SCIENTIFIC TERM, so nobody will say that anything is addictive in scientific contexts because that would be a scientifically invalid statement.
Nice, condescension and sexism. Please, I want to have a civil conversation with you about this topic, you do not need to go disparaging me or others to make your point.
You stated the DSM matters. You started the conversation with it.
No, it is not, because "addiction" is not defined in the DSM-V besides a note about how the DSM-V does not use the term.
In scientific contexts, yes. Absolutely I believe that.
I am quite literally citing sources that are not my opinion but are instead current scientific reality or common interpretations. My opinion just happens to agree with the science and I am not bothered by non-scientists using a non-scientific word in whatever way gets the conversation going. I am also citing the opinions of 90% of individuals in this thread - they seem to agree that caffeine is addictive.
I really want to come to an understanding between us and find some place to land.
I understand your perspective - you don't want people to use a term that you feel has a specific definition because you feel that it trivializes your experience - and I think it's not an unreasonable thing to want. I don't want to trivialize those suffering from substance use disorders.
But my perspective is that people are using "addiction" as a communication tool in a non-scientific context and that there is no harm in that. It gets the point across and we are able to successfully communicate about the topic. Sidelining the conversation with corrections on terminology is really not helpful, especially when that terminology is no longer scientifically relevant.
We should be discussing the impacts of caffeine on our bodies and our society, not whether or not one word is better than the other.
And I'm arguing you're wrong. I have evidence to support it. You don't. End of discussion.
edit:
Cite one.
Come on, now you're just being rude and dismissive. I'm trying to come together here and come to an understanding.
What, where? You've sited the DSM-V and anecdotes, the former disagrees with you and the latter is opinion
Here's two:
News article using the term "addiction":
Inside Caffeine Addicts Anonymous: 'It Controlled Me Enough' which also mentions a support group, like the ones you reference: Caffeine Addicts Anonymous
Scientific article using the term "addiction":
Caffeine Intoxication and Addiction
Whether or not you agree with them, the point is that it is commonly used.
It took how many comments for you to finally say something of substance? That is why this discussion is dead.
FTR lol at citing a news article about recovery programs you dismissed ages ago, and an article dated back to the DSM-IV supposedly in the era of invalid language.
Bye
So I give you articles that are not only referencing the exact version of addiction you want and mention a support group that you keep referencing and you dismiss them because it's inconvenient. I fit the references to something you might find convincing. I didn't find sources that convinced me I found sources that might convince you.
But please, provide your own evidence, as you referenced earlier. I have provided mine, and I await yours.
You have literally said nothing at this point beyond referencing outdated version of the manual and anecdotal evidence.